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Author Topic:   lion vs tiger
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9143
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 72 of 91 (571780)
08-02-2010 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Big_Al35
08-02-2010 10:38 AM


Re: Genetic compatibility is not relevant.
Maybe a link would be nice. Instead of us having to search for the line in the myriad of places it could be.
Remember context is everything.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Big_Al35, posted 08-02-2010 10:38 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9143
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 77 of 91 (571789)
08-02-2010 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Big_Al35
08-02-2010 11:20 AM


Waiting
Still no source for your 15 million year comment?
Color me surprised.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Big_Al35, posted 08-02-2010 11:20 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9143
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 84 of 91 (571998)
08-03-2010 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Big_Al35
08-03-2010 7:13 AM


Lets compare
Big Al's reference states this.
ABE Quote fixed by edit
quote:
The skeleton of the lion and tiger are so alike that without the skin it is almost impossible to tell them apart, presenting even the best experts with a great challenge.
Wk's reference states this.
quote:
So here are the criteria of Boule (1906) as translated and presented by Merriam and Stock (1932). I shall only list the cranial characters. Alongside are my identification criteria as shown in a series of diagrams I'd prepared for the Departmental collections, for potential use in undergraduate practicals - I used subadults for this, as the unfused sutures come up more visibly in photos.
LION
1. The frontal process of the superior maxillary reaches the level of the fronto-nasal suture, or extends back of this suture.
2. The summit of this process is more or less acute.
3. The nasal bones are flat or slightly convex, especially toward their frontal extremities.
4. The external opening of the nasal fossae is relatively wider; it widens regularly beginning at the lower part.
5. The interorbital space formed by the frontals is wider, flatter and even commonly excavated; the Lion has a forehead which is wide and flat, transversely as well as longitudinally.
6. The temporal part of the frontals is relatively less developed; the fronto-parietal sutures are placed further forward.
7. The posterior palatine foramen is closer to the orbital border.
8. The inferior border of the mandible has a rather convex form; below the carnassial, this border presents a sort of tuberosity which is more or less pronounced (ramal process of English authors). This shape is such that a mandible of a Lion lying on a table on this inferior border can not touch the table at the symphysis and the angular process at the same time.
9. The coronoid process does not project behind the condyle.
TIGER
1. The frontal process of the superior maxillary does not reach the fronto-nasal suture.
2. The summit of this process is truncated.
3. the nasal bones are very convex throughout their length.
4. The external opening of the nasal fossae is relatively narrower; it widens regularly, only up to a certain height, beginning at the lower part.
5. The interorbital space is narrower and always convex: the Tiger has a forehead which is narrower and more arched.
6. The temporal part of the frontals is relatively more developed; the fronto-parietal sutures are placed further back.
7. The posterior palatine foramen is further removed from the orbital border.
8. The inferior border of the mandible has a rather straight and even concave form; there is no tuberosity below the carnassial. The mandible placed on a table rests on the symphysis and on the angular process at the same time.
9. The coronoid process projects behind the condyle.
(Merriam and Stock 1932, pp. 181-182)
With regards to my diagrams featuring my identification criteria, most of Boule's (1906) criteria are actually featured here, albeit in simpler language. The most immediately notable difference between a Lion and a Tiger skull is shown best in the lateral view photo. The Lion skull (top) is generally flatter and the face is upturned. On the other hand, the Tiger skull (bottom) has a rounded look to it with the face tilted sharply downwards. When the skull + mandible is placed squarely on a flat surface, the Lion skull will rock forwards and backwards, primarily due to the rounded ventral margin of the mandible, the tuberosity below the carnassial (m1) as described by Boule (1906). The Tiger skull on the other hand will just sit there firmly.
The most noticeable difference between the two taxa in dorsal view is the relative positions of the maxillo-frontal and naso-frontal sutures. In the Lion, the apex of the nasals are either in line with the apices of the frontal processes of the maxillae or more anterior to these, while the same nasal projection extends farther posteriorly in the Tiger. The shape of the frontal process of the maxilla also differ in the two species as described by Boule (1906). After the gross differences identifiable from lateral view, which is basically the same as first impressions, the relative positions of these sutures is the most reliable and concrete distinguishing character.
In frontal view (below), the Lion has a relatively wider external opening for the nares, flatter dorsal surface of the nasals, less steeply inclined lateral surfaces of the maxilla, and broader forehead. The Tiger on the other hand has a narrower external nasal opening constricted ventrally, strongly convex dorsal surface of the nasals such that it forms a prominent bridge along the lateral margin of the nasals with a concave valley along the midline, steeply inclined lateral surfacese of the maxillae and relatively narrower forehead. Overall, a Lion is broader and flatter along the bridge of the nose, while the Tiger is narrower and sharper along the bridge of the nose.
In any case, I am quite happy that my identification is corroborated by earlier work.
One is an unevidenced assertion, the other is referenced evidence. I wonder who I am going to believe.
I truly find it amazing(not really) that BigAl uses an unevidenced assertion as evidence for his unevidenced assertion.
Edited by Theodoric, : wrong quote pasted

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Big_Al35, posted 08-03-2010 7:13 AM Big_Al35 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Wounded King, posted 08-03-2010 9:30 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 86 by Big_Al35, posted 08-03-2010 9:51 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9143
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 89 of 91 (572082)
08-03-2010 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Big_Al35
08-03-2010 9:51 AM


Re: Lets compare
oops wrong paste.
here is the correct.
The skeleton of the lion and tiger are so alike that without the skin it is almost impossible to tell them apart, presenting even the best experts with a great challenge.
I will fix original post too

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Big_Al35, posted 08-03-2010 9:51 AM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
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