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Author | Topic: Creationists think Evolutionists think like Creationists. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: What is metaphysical about infinity? From the quote out of Brian Greene's book: "Experimenters never measure an infinite amount of anything. Dials never spin around to infinity. Meters never reach infinity. Calculators never register infinity. Almost always, an infinite answer is meaningless.".Greene is saying that in the physical world infinity is meaningless. Therefore it seems to me that it could only have meaning in the metaphysical. As I said, this doesn't prove anything, but the question was asked what could be considered as evidence for the metaphysical and it seems to me that this fits the bill.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: The really important thing about Quantum Mechanics is that it is NOT metaphysical or super natural but just yet another step in understanding "Natural". I didn't suggest otherwise nor did Greene. All Greene is saying is that right now when the formulas of relativity and QM are combined they come up with an answer that doesn't make sense in a physical way.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: Fortunately he qualified what he said by saying "Almost always, an infinite answer is meaningless." He also said this to this particular iussue which isn't quailfied. "In practice, the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum mechanics rears its head in a very specific way. If you use the combined equations of general relativity and quantum mechanics, they almost always yield one answer: infinity. And that's a problem. It's nonsense." Edited by GDR, : No reason given.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
He obviously doesn't. The point is that in the world in which he works is physics which comes fromythe same root word as physical. Within that world it doesn't make sense. Therefore if the calculations are correct, (which they may well not be as there is no doubt more to be leartned), then the evidence leads to a non-physical or a metaphysical answer.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: Infinity as a mathematical concept is essential throughout broad realms of mathematical models of reality, but what you're really asking is what it would mean if one of these models yielded infinity as a final answer rather than just playing a role as part of the model. Exactly. In the natural world something that is infinite doesn't make sense as Greene points out. Infinity as an answer to either the situation at T=0, or the example of the combining of the equations for QM and Relativity that Greene talks about, may be just because of the fact that we haven't solved the problem yet and there will be another answer. Right now however, the answer is infinity, and it seems to me that this could constitute evidence for something that exists outside of the physical world as we understand it.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
PaulK writes: So you are building a speculation on top of a highly unlikely speculation. That's so weak as to be negligible as evidence. I don't agree. Right now science and mathematics provide an answer of inifinity which if correct is not something that is conceivable in our 4 dimensional world. The current science points to something metaphysical. It's evidence of something metaphysical. Is it the final word? No. But it seems to be where we are at right now.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
PaulK writes: No, it doesn't. Current science says that the answer you like so much is almost certainly wrong. That is where we are now. I'm not saying that it isn't wrong but right now the evidence points to something outside the physical. You can only say that it is almost certainly wrong if you discount the possibility of anything outside the physical.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes:
I agree completely
Exactly. Evidence for something that exists outside of the physical world as we understand it. Or, more scientifically, as we currently understand it.
Stile writes: What is pointing to something metaphysical? I don't see this at all. Do you have any evidence for this "pointing" to something metaphysical? I'm repeating myself but you are still asking the question. The answer that scientists consistently come up with when combining GR and QM is infinity. As Greene points out that doesn't fit into our naturalistic world as we experience it. Therefore the evidence, as we currently understand it, points to an answer outside the physical.
Stile writes: What's more rational?1. To think our understanding of the physical world is incomplete or incorrect and that more in-depth investigation of the physical world is required so that we can gain more correct-knowledge about the physical world. -as has happened many times in science -as has happened in a shift to Newtonian physics -as has happened in a shift to Quantum physics Absolutely and this may very well be the case again.
Stile writes: 2. To think that something supernatural is occuring.-for which there is no evidence at all -for which there has never been any evidence at all -for which time and time again has been shown to be an incorrect and useless explanation (gods controlling weather patterns, earth-centric idea of the universe, creation of fire...) I'm just pointing out that there is evidence, although I would agree that it is far from conclusive.
Stile writes: So, we know from past experience that when this sort of "infinity" issue comes up... it always leads to more study and an eventual increase in our knowledge about how the physical world works. Out of curiosity can you give me an example, although I don't actually doubt that you are correct?
Stile writes: Why should the supernatural be considered? What, specifically, is actually pointing towards it? Do you understand that the scientific community has been in this exact situation many, many times in the past and it has never turned out to be a supernatural explanation? It has always turned out to be an increase in our understanding about the physical world. So, when science hasn't been able so far to provide an example you just say that it will some day. Wouldn't that be the same as someone saying that god did it. It looks to me like a "science of the gaps" argument.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
subbie writes: The difference, of course, is that the former is the beginning of a search for further answers while the latter is the end. Absolutely from a scientific point of view but from a philosophical or theological point of view it could certainly be something to be considered. However, the statement does nothing to make the case that this is any different than the "god of the gaps" argument. Someone might say that because science hasn't found an answer it must be god,(however they define god), whereas the argument here is that although science hasn't yet found an answer it must still have a materialistic answer. Both approaches are depended on one's world view.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: The answer here is that nothing but materialistic answers have ever been found, so there is no reason to expect anything but a materialistic answer. Why not? Who would have imagined in 1900 the strange goings on in the world of QM? Who knows what will be uncovered in the future? And of course science should continue to seek a materialistic answer.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: There is nothing in QM that is not materialistic. I agree, but my point was that what they eventually discovered was completely contradictory to anything that had been anticipated. Look at the trouble Einstein had in coming to terms with it. Besides, I go back to my earlier question of "why not". Your point seems to be that because they haven't discovered something up to now means that they can't discover it in the future. If you work on that basis all scientists should now close up their books and try and find work as accountants.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
You still haven't answered the question "why not". Just because that hasn't been an answer found in the past does not mean it won't be found in the future.
jar writes: Is there any reason to think any explanation we find will not be materialistic? Well yes. That is the point of the discussion. Right now the answers that they are coming up with appear to point to something that is not of the material world. Sure there is a good chance that will change but I'm merely pointing out where things stand now.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Stile writes: The evidence is pointing at an incorrect application of our existing understanding to this physical aspect of the world. I disagree. Right now the answer just about always comes to infinity. Again, as Greene points out that doesn't make sense as we don't experience infinity in a 4 dimensional world. There are two ways of looking at that. One way, as you point out, is that the application is incorrect and that may very well be the case. The other is that the application is correct and that it points to something other than a purely natural solution. As it stands now it points to something other than a natural solution although that could easily change with new data tomorrow.
Stile writes: From "this is incorrect" to "this has to be supernatural" is a really big jump. A really big jump that requires you to add a bit more clarification in your evidence than "I think it has to be this way". Why do you think it has to be this way? Why do you think it has to be the supernatural, when we've been in this situation many, many times in the past and it's never been the supernatural ever before I am not claiming that "this has to be supernatural". I am merely saying that as of now the evidence points beyond the natural, although I agree it may just be because at this point we don't have enough information. A final conclusion can't be made one way or the other.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
jar writes: And so the answer is NOT Super-natural but simply "Place in Unknown Cause" folder. You can put it wherever you want. The current evidence points to something beyond the natural. That evidence may or may not be correct or complete.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
marc9000 writes: And the first steps in that process are when Christianity is compromised with Darwinism. Once it’s weakened, atheism is come by. As Bluejay has indicated, it’s happening to him, and we see it’s already happened to you. It confirms what is said about the dangers of Christian compromise with evolution. I really have to take exception to that. The more I have been able to learn about God's creation, including evolution, the more convinced I have become about the truth of my Christian faith. Read Francis Collin's book The Language of God. Let's face it, if Christianity represents an accurate picture of our world then it only holds to reason that it will be consistent with accurate science. I have found nothing about science that contradicts Christianity and as far as evolution is concerned it makes no difference whether God chose to create through an evolutionary process or by some other means. What is important to my Christian faith, (amongst other things of course), is that we are created beings and that the creator is God. In essence, as one of the great Christian minds of the past said, (I can't remember which one right now), we have been given two books in which we can learn about God. One is the Bible and one is his creation. In the end they cannot be in contradiction. There is only one ultimate truth.
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