banning burqas

Why Islamic women wear burka's and other forms of traditional garb is because the woman is looked upon sexually. So she is covered and can only be seen by her husband.The issue is that unless there is a serious and legitimate concern for suicide bombers using it, I don't see how the West can deprive someone the choice of wearing whatever clothes they damn well feel like. Hell, that's why we abhor Middle Eastern practices in the first place!

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"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

When there comes a man with a bomb belted on him inside a women's berga garb anxious enought for those alleged 70 virgins allegedly awaiting him and alleged direct entrance into Heaven, into the restaraunt in which you, your family and/or friends are dining or in the market where you buy your groceries, perhaps you'll get over that internal conflict if you survive the blast.Nobody has any way of knowing how many bank robbers, convicted felons or FBI most wanted are shopping in malls and walking the streets in bergas.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Perhaps we should ban Christian expression because a wingnut or two blew up an abortion Clinic... Come on Buzzsaw

Just as this thread was progressing nicely, with lots of relevant, on-topic discussion, along comes Buzsaw... What's the matter Buz? Did you tire of posting innuendo and scaremongering on the Obama thread? Thought you'd post a little bit of innuendo and scaremongering over here? *sigh* The market where I buy my groceries is run by a woman in a "burga" (a chador actually). She's very nice. Nor do we know how many are wearing big hats. Do you have a point that's relevant to the discussion at hand at all? Or just more of your trademark non-specific Islamophobia?Mutate and Survive

I think that we all would agree that terrorism, (and right now the biggest threat seems to come from Islamic extremists) constitutes a major threat to the entire world's population.It only takes a handful of people to inflict tremendous carnage and loss of life. I question wisdom of worrying about things like burqas as it is counter-productive. Frankly I think that they are a way of degrading women and I would like to see it stopped, but banning them by legal means, I contend, only makes the situation worse both for Muslim women and for the security of everyone.Here's why:

quote:

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Mubin Shaikh is an observant Muslim and activist for Shariah law in Ontario. He was born in Toronto, the son of immigrant parents who came to Canada in the 1970s.
He was also a paid police informant who helped infiltrate a group of 17 Muslim men and youth now charged with orchestrating a terrorist plot targeting Toronto and Ottawa.

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Here is the link to the whole story: Mubin ShaikhMy contention is that unless we work with the vast majority of the Muslim population that abhors violence as much as the rest of us then it seems to me that there isn't a lot of hope for things to get better and will in fact only get worse.The war on terror will not be won by isolating Muslims. It will only be won by including them while at the same time prosecuting the actual terrorists to the maximum degree. The more we isolate the Muslim community the less likely they will be to co-operate as Mubin Shaikh did. If it wasn't for this man things could be very different in Toronto today.As Christians I think it is critical to look at the life of Christ in Roman occupied Judea. His approach to defeating the Romans was: love your enemy: turn the other cheek: go the extra mile. I realize that over-simplifies the situation but I think it is important to keep it in mind. In the end you win a war not by annihilating your enemy but by winning their hearts.In case someone is going to point out that Mubin Shaikh is working politically to have sharia law implemented I would suggest that that is his democratic right just as it is for all of us regardless of our world view, whether we be Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Jew or anything else you want to name.
IMHO

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

As fast as this thread is moving (or at least piling up messages), I haven't followed it closely. BUT, I was under the impression that security concerns were considered a significant part of the "burqa problem".My impression here, is that you're grasping for any excuse to jump on Buz. I certainly find your message to be much more counter to quality debate than was Buz's.Moose (with Adminnemooseus standing behind)

A more serious concern to the world's is the risk of global warming resulting in a collapse of fisheries and of agriculture.The risk from terrorism is much overstated. And don't forget the risk from drunk drivers.

Hi Moose, Why exactly? It's an absurd red herring. The kinds of outfit we're discussing here don't offer any advantage in hiding a bomb. They are no better or worse at hiding a bomb belt than any dress or jacket. All they do is hide the face, which is hardly relevant to a suicide bomber.Instances where suicide bombers have used the cross-dressing disguise have been about getting past security of one sort or another. Given that my local restaurants and markets (which is what Buz mentioned) don't have security checkpoints, I don't really see the relevance. Wearing a veil wouldn't really offer any advantage to a suicide bomber in the West. It would be more likely to draw attention from security. Absolutely not. Frankly, I have "jumped on" everyone on this thread with whom I've disagreed.Buzsaw's message conveys a pretty clear implication that when I see a woman in traditional dress, I should worry that she has a bomb strapped to her. It's absurd, divisive and bigoted. I don't need any excuse to jump on Buz. He is providing me with plenty of reason to take exception to his comments. He clearly has a bee in his bonnet about Islam. Every time he mentions it, it seems to be in the context of terrorism or clandestine attempts to take over the USA. It's your garden variety Islamophobia. So, yes I jumped on it. Fair enough. For the record, I have a lot of respect for Buz. Despite his uncanny ability to be wrong about almost everything, he strikes me as a decent guy. That's why he exasperates me all the more when he says such appalling things.Trying to link the clothing choices of ordinary Muslim woman to suicide bombings is invalid and small minded. Banning "burqas" will only make matters worse by outraging and alienating Muslims.Mutate and Survive

I know. Yes, I agree. I thjink I'll let the id angle slide for now.

Or, if you're up for a role in Star Trek, it's "put on these funny ears or get lost".And if you're up for a role as a potential ideal partner for a blind man in Curb Your Enthusiam, it's "put on this Burka or get lost". Seriously, I get your point. There is undoubtedly more pressure on women in showbusiness to do the things you mention. There is undoubtedly a level of intimidation. To a lesser extent the same must be true of men. You don't see many fat, ugly male action heros, though there probably is a much wider range of roles for men. But any actress who refused to adhere to gratuitous dress codes, etc would probably attain a higher level of respect, if not income. And she is free to "get lost" if she wants to. Scarcely anyone would criticise her for making that decision. I don't see women from cultures where the Burka type outfits prevail having the same kind of freedom. I agree. This was a point I made in my first post. It's all about a fear of an alien culture. I've never stated that the Burka must be banned. I'm just thinking out loud about possible ways in which an intimidation to wear it can be "outed".

True. Men and women dress differently in most cultures. And in Victorian times, Western women were much more restricted in what was considered "decent" for them to wear (although not to the same extent I fear many Muslim women are today). Indeed, Western women used to be much more restricted in what they could do in all aspects of life.But this topic is about wearing the Burka in Western countries today, and whether or not it should be banned. I've already said I find it very hard to see how it could legitimately be banned. Again, you're right. But I am permitted to express my suspicion that they are heavily intimidated to wear them. It's the lack of real choice they may have that concerns me. Western women are pressurised into wearing high heals, etc, and that's not good, but I don't see any real threat to them if they choose to wear flats or if they choose not to wear a skimpy bikini.I'm just thinking out loud on ways in which we may be able to reveal whether or not some women in the West are being forced to wear the Burka (and forced to do other more serious things).

Not sure what you mean by "special foods" but yes these are issues worth discussing at some point. But it is different because the pressures faced by Western women are nothing like the same pressure as I suspect there often is to wear a Burka (which is only the tip of the iceberg). Western women generally have a much greater freedom of choice. Despite certain pressures to wear skimpy clothes, etc, ultimately if they want to wear a dress with high heels, or a sweater with combat trousers and flats, nobody really gives a shit.

Unfortunately, the article doesn't give any proper insight at all into why she wears it. "All Muslim converts who married Muslim men..." - that says it all.If they converted to Islam then they are "from the Muslim world" in my book.Why didn't their husbands convert to their religion or, indeed, why was it necessary for either of them to convert? (This issue of converting in order to marry is something that disturbs me and I was already thinking of starting a topic on it.) By menfolk I mean any men from their family or culture. There is a massive imbalance of power v subservience in these cultures between men and women. Yet they often try to deny this. I'd like to see them express this in an unequivocable way. It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, you can still have a gun held to your head.Are there no intelligent atheist women? If there are, why aren't they covering every inch of their bodies to escape unwanted male attention?

That can happen with or without a burqa. A backpack could fit enough C-4 to blow up 3 blocks, but I doubt you would ban backpacks as a result.So, obviously there is another reason why they want to ban it. It sounds like perhaps for those in favor of the ban do so on the pretense that burqa represents all that it wrong with Islam. While I certainly wouldn't disagree, I can think of no good reason why free people in a free society cannot dress any way they choose.

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"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine