The meaning of "meaning"

A question that should be raised here is one of philosophical consistency.By stepping back the 'purpose' or 'meaning' to an 'external' source or root or whatever...doesn't mean we should stick to asking the same questions as when we were considering these things from an internal perspective.So if a Theist pushes it back to God/afterlife the question then becomes What meaning does God/the afterlife have? What is the purpose of God? What is the purpose of the afterlife?Instead the issue that you've moved scope gets overlooked. Sure, it gives our lives 'meaning' but if the meaning is meaningless (ie., there is nothing external to God that gives God any particular meaning with no purpose above the 'grand scheme') then ultimately the Theist ends up at the same place.So the question is: Ultimately what meaning does your life have?The answer is: Depends on the scope employed.My life is a potential link between my ancestors and my descendants (or a sibling's descendants, or a cousin's etc) - it means the replication was succesful.Or maybe my meaning is to generate happiness? To help make this strange experience of consciousness be as painless as possible? To protect those around me from the chaos?All of these are 'external' to me, as much as 'To glorify god' might be external to the theist. If we start asking the atheist 'but what's the ultimate grand scheme purpose to making people happy and protecting your family?' we'd probably get the same answers as if we asked the theist about the ultimate purpose of God.The only 'internal' things is deciding which purposes and meanings we wish to strive for, uphold, engage in, or view life through. This is the same for the theist and the atheist. No more than Atheists who retort their viewpoint has the same amount of meaning as the Theists at the same level of scope: If there's no meaning in one case, there isn't any in the other...

Again - we have a scope issue. Sure - theists believe their sense of meaning derives from the fact that they have some specific preconceived role to play in some great design. But that doesn't tell us anything about what that role is or whether there is any meaning or purpose behind the great design.We find ourselves with our social function, our familial role and so on and so forth. We have some control over some of these things - but we are essentially born into them. So there is our meaning. Where did that come from? Historical contingency or supernatural third party?It doesn't matter. At this level of scope, we all agree we have meaning, purposes, roles etc etc. Theists want to say that there is no great purpose behind 'It's just the way things turned out, circumstance we were born into, genetics, chance events that nobody has any preconceived control and plan over. ' With no ultimate 'plan' there is no real 'meaning'. But I'll just counter: If there is no great purpose to the plan that God has laid out - it's just as meaningless.Ultimately there is a cutoff point of 'meaning' - pushing things back one level of scope doesn't get out of the point that ultimately there is no more meaning than we ourselves (including gods etc) decide to assign to things.When confronted with this the Theist says "I don't know what the great purpose behind the ultimate plan is." - in which case there philosophy is just as without meaning as an Atheist.

I didn't assume anything. I was expressing my own experiences having discussed this line with several reasonable and intelligent theists and a few irrational ones too. I have no idea how a theist would explain something in specific revelation. Since it is on topic - perhaps you could shake things up a bit and say what it is. How would a question that is inherently contradictory be non-contradictory? But, as Dr A points out...I don't claim there is no meaning etc. So no contradiction there I'm afraid.

The question I quoted before I said what I said. My argument is that meaning depends on the scope being considered. I've not failed to understand anything. I've simply not made the claims you are saying that I am making. I'm hardly switching gears, you are just having difficulty understanding me. It's probably because you are assuming what I am saying rather than comprehending. In both my first and second posts (of the three I had made before you asked this question - the third being the response to you) I described all of this. If you don't understand it, let me know and I'll simplify. If you dispute my point tell me on what grounds.If going back and reading two of my posts, one of which you have presumably read, is too taxing, try this

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My life is a potential link between my ancestors and my descendants (or a sibling's descendants, or a cousin's etc) - it means the replication was succesful.

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Or maybe my meaning is to generate happiness? To help make this strange experience of consciousness be as painless as possible? To protect those around me from the chaos?

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All of these are 'external' to me, as much as 'To glorify god' might be external to the theist. If we start asking the atheist 'but what's the ultimate grand scheme purpose to making people happy and protecting your family?' we'd probably get the same answers as if we asked the theist about the ultimate purpose of God.

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You've picked a right pickle of a topic - I wouldn't worry about getting tangled up a little. There'll be plenty of talking past one another before the thread is over. Something has to mean something to someone right? How could it not be subjective? If there isn't a subject that finds meaning in it - what are we talking about? But then it means something according to the subject, God. But God itself has no meaning. And what is the meaning of having an infinite line of gods being created by other gods that give meaning to the existence of humans? I dispute this. The meaning in my life was 'created' by me, or by my circumstances. I don't see how it is different from God creating 'meaning' or 'assigning' meaning or anything else.

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intrinsic (created) meaning --> sense of meaning --> roles/duties

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But what do you actually mean by intrinsic meaning? How is the intrinsic meaning of 'replicating DNA' somehow less intrinsic than the intrinsic meaning 'pleasing God'? Or 'fitting into some unknown grand scheme'?I've specificed the Grand Scheme of atheistic intrinsic meaning (DNA replication) and any sub-meanings that are created or assigned from there. Theists seem to rely on mysteriousness to imply their intrinsic meaning is somehow 'better' than the atheist meaning. intrinsic (created) meaning --> sense of meaning --> roles/duties
DNA replication --> sense of meaning --> roles/duties
or possibly
DNA replication --> roles/duties --> sense of meaningSimples! Possibly. Maybe you are just trying to justify something great about theism to yourself because that nagging doubt has reared its ugly head?

And since that observation makes up my position - it'd be silly to say that I was rejecting the concept of meaning wouldn't it? Which I contest makes no sense. If you'd like to reveal what you think that meaning is, then let me know. Feel free to explain.... In fact what I said was

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I was expressing my own experiences having discussed this line with several reasonable and intelligent theists and a few irrational ones too. I have no idea how a theist would explain something in specific revelation. Since it is on topic - perhaps you could shake things up a bit and say what it is.

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And you haven't explained, via specific revelation or mere words, what this great plan and what the purpose behind the great plan is, yet. Any particular reason why you haven't?

It makes no sense because the grammar is all over the place.

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Ultimatley we are not talking about a perspective, we are talking about meaning in and about reality itself.

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Unless you can tell me what could fit the bill of 'meaning in and about reality itself' I have no idea what you think this means, let alone what I should make of it. Then you'll have to explain what it means for there to be an objective meaning. It is possible for there to be meaning and purpose. I've given some non theistic meanings and purposes. So now we've agreed that it's possible - why not take a shot at saying what it might be and we'll see if works out the way you thought. Or language, it seems at times.Nevertheless - it would help tremendously if you'd just say what the ultimate meaning was. No. Unless anything that was written in said scripture that addressed some kind of specific information as to the meaning of God, or whatever it is that is the 'ultimate meaning/purpose' - I don't think it would suffice. I haven't seen anything like that in the Bible. Please let me know rather than alluding to things and waiving your hands while making spooky noises. Cheers.

No it doesn't. And I don't see why it's necessary to explain further. Proof? Not not meaning? What specifics about meaning? What does sentence this mean and how did you get from 'God has given us specifics' to 'therefore' meaning is 'God as a reality'? Can you prove that objective meaning is possible? Can you explain what it means? And yet 'becoming clearer' is not something you seem keen on, correct? I don't accept it at all. I just don't think that reality has meaning beyond that which subjective entities might assign to it.

I know - asking for someone to support their position is grotesquely unfair. Forgive me. That's fine - but I didn't do that. No. I'll take that as a "no - I can't prove it." And when you decide to comprehend my posts - you'll realize I need not avoid the conclusion that there is meaning since I accept the conclusion. My entire point in this thread has been that there is as much meaning in 'atheism' as there is in 'theism'. It wasn't a statement, it was two questions. You can, but you won't? If only there was a thread on these boards about 'meaning' where you could do that upon request... Again, the grammar is incomprehensible. Are you saying there is only entity in existence? Are you trying to say that objective meaning means whatever God desires it to be? In which case it is surely subjective (ie., God's desire). Don't keep me in suspense any further! Tell me what this meaning is, the meaning that we atheists are missing out on!