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Topic: God created evolution
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 7 of 118 (572363)
08-05-2010 11:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by kanedotca
08-05-2010 7:20 AM
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kanedotca writes: Could this theory be the balance that can find harmony between these two passionate sides of a needless argument?
I don't think so. The major thrust of creationism is anti-science. Even if scientists could detect God and confirm that He was the Creator, creationists would probably still reject science. They want to believe that their "special voodoo powers" are superior to going out and doing the work. They want to go straight to the answers in the back of the book instead of putting any effort into understanding.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by kanedotca, posted 08-05-2010 7:20 AM | | kanedotca has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 28 of 118 (572904)
08-08-2010 1:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by GDR
08-08-2010 10:26 AM
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GDR writes: My point was that Larni stated that the evidence points to an unguided process. Whenever a theist on this forum makes a statement like that he/she is immediately swarmed. In this case the board was not so strangely silent.
The thing is, we do have evidence of "failed" designs - i.e. extinctions. Theists don't have evidence for their claims. You can complain about the interptretation of the evidence - creationists love to do that - but there is evidence of "failure". The most likely explanation for the extinctions seems to be that the design "didn't work" in the given environment - i.e. it failed. The most likely explanation is what science always goes for and "God coulda woulda shoulda...." doesn't qualify.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by GDR, posted 08-08-2010 10:26 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 31 by GDR, posted 08-08-2010 7:29 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 32 of 118 (572954)
08-09-2010 12:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 31 by GDR
08-08-2010 7:29 PM
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GDR writes: All you can say is that some species became extinct. Maybe that was necessary for the next step in the evolutionary process. It tells us nothing about whether there was a designer or not.
You ignored the second half of my post:
quote:
The most likely explanation for the extinctions seems to be that the design "didn't work" in the given environment - i.e. it failed. The most likely explanation is what science always goes for and "God coulda woulda shoulda...." doesn't qualify.
Nowhere did I make an argument against a designer. I said that if there was a designer, he had a lot more failures than successes. I don't know why anybody would want to associate such imcompetence with their god.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by GDR, posted 08-08-2010 7:29 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by GDR, posted 08-09-2010 2:04 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 39 of 118 (572993)
08-09-2010 11:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 33 by GDR
08-09-2010 2:04 AM
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GDR writes: Larni said that there was evidence against design. I merely asked what evidence he had and what he claimed as evidence was the fact that there have been extinct species. That was the discussion you entered into. I repeat that there is no evidence against a designer. There is only personal opinion. Larni's was that there is no designer and my belief that there is.
Nobody cares what your opinion is. We want to know why you hold that opinion. I suggested that if there was a designer, he seems to be incompetent because most of his designs have fallen by the wayside. I think that is a pretty good argument against a "god" being behind evolution. A small minority of good designs don't make him look very godlike. You didn't address that point. Edited by ringo, : Split a paragraph. Edited by ringo, : Spellin.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by GDR, posted 08-09-2010 2:04 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 41 by GDR, posted 08-09-2010 11:34 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 46 of 118 (573015)
08-09-2010 1:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 41 by GDR
08-09-2010 11:34 AM
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GDR writes: You keep trying to move the discussion to something it wasn't.
Yes, I do. It's called "moving the discussion forward".
GDR writes: I did address that point in post 31.
The point you didn't address was the difference between a God and an incompetent designer. A god who is still learning and growing, as the OP suggests, seems plausible but it doesn't seem plausible that the God usually postulated by creationists and IDists - a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, blah, blah, blah - would have such a big junk pile.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by GDR, posted 08-09-2010 11:34 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 50 by GDR, posted 08-09-2010 2:25 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 53 of 118 (573030)
08-09-2010 2:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 50 by GDR
08-09-2010 2:25 PM
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GDR writes: Frankly a creator that can bring this creation to where it is today is good enough for me.
But How Mediocre Thou Art doesn't have the same ring to it.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by GDR, posted 08-09-2010 2:25 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 55 by GDR, posted 08-09-2010 3:07 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 56 of 118 (573043)
08-09-2010 3:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 55 by GDR
08-09-2010 3:07 PM
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GDR writes: We have a universe so large that we can't determine even if it is infinite or not, we have a world that is able to maintain life, life does actually exist, that life is made up of cells that are unbelievably complex and some of that life is sentient. That sure sounds "Great" to me.
Then make up your mind. Is your designer/god powerful or not? Every time a gap in human understanding is closed, believers try to jam their god into another one. He's getting smaller, not bigger.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by GDR, posted 08-09-2010 3:07 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 57 by GDR, posted 08-09-2010 3:25 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 58 of 118 (573069)
08-09-2010 3:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 57 by GDR
08-09-2010 3:25 PM
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GDR writes: I'm sorry that He didn't consult with you first so that He could have incorporated your ideas in how it really should have been done.
What I'm suggesting is that believers should consult a little common sense. They talk about a being great enough to create a galaxy or a cell but they ignore the medium-sized things like mountains that we can see creating themselves. They handwave away any mistakes their designer made ("It was supposed to be like that.") and they also handwave away the moral implications of designed suffering. I just wonder who they think the tapdancing is fooling (other than themselves).
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by GDR, posted 08-09-2010 3:25 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 63 of 118 (573257)
08-10-2010 3:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 62 by GDR
08-10-2010 1:53 PM
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Re: Circular argument
GDR writes: Virtually all of the books I read are either books on science, theology or both.
That seems like a bad plan. It's like reading books about France and elephants and coming to the conclusion that elephants come from France. Maybe you should broaden your horizons.
GDR writes: Frankly the more I read the more I have become convinced of the basic truth of Christianity.
So your confirmation bias seems to be working just fine. How about your critical thinking?
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by GDR, posted 08-10-2010 1:53 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 64 by GDR, posted 08-10-2010 3:52 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 78 of 118 (596021)
12-12-2010 12:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 75 by shadow71
12-12-2010 10:50 AM
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shadow71 writes: You cannot judge a supernatural being by human standards.
That's an odd notion. What other standards do we have? Are you suggesting that we should judge a supernatural being by his own standards? That would be like judging a criminal by his own standards instead of ours.
"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by shadow71, posted 12-12-2010 10:50 AM | | shadow71 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by shadow71, posted 12-12-2010 1:24 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 83 of 118 (596036)
12-12-2010 1:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by shadow71
12-12-2010 1:24 PM
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shadow74 writes: No, I am suggesting that you cannot judge a supernatural being. See definition in reply to granny magda.
There's nothing in the definition you provided that has anything to do with judgement. We can - and do - judge the creation as imperfect. The question is why is it imperfect?
"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by shadow71, posted 12-12-2010 1:24 PM | | shadow71 has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 87 of 118 (596049)
12-12-2010 2:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 86 by shadow71
12-12-2010 2:27 PM
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shadow71 writes: How can we judge what we cannot understand?
Human judges do that all the time. Do you think they "understand" pedophilia or mass murder? Judging isn't about understanding. It's about reacting to "something", either natural or supernatural, that has an effect on our society. It's about fighting back to defend our princples.
"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by shadow71, posted 12-12-2010 2:27 PM | | shadow71 has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 98 of 118 (596083)
12-12-2010 9:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by shadow71
12-12-2010 7:55 PM
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shadow71 writes: How can a natural being judge something he or she cannot understand, unless they are judging form their standards not a supernatural being's.
As I already said in Message 87, of course we are judging from our own standards. They're the only standards we can use. You have no basis to claim that a supernatural being has standards that are somehow "superior" to our own.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by shadow71, posted 12-12-2010 7:55 PM | | shadow71 has not replied |
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