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Author Topic:   Where are all the gods?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 15 of 122 (566973)
06-28-2010 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by onifre
06-28-2010 7:47 PM


Re: "True Perfection Has To Be Imperfect"
"onifire' writes:
Wait, I'm god?
Psalm 82
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by onifre, posted 06-28-2010 7:47 PM onifre has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 16 of 122 (566975)
06-28-2010 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
06-28-2010 12:12 PM


"Jumped Up Chimpanzee" writes:
Where are all the gods?
Deuteronomy 12:2
Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods.
I can't speak for all the other gods, shit I can't even speak for God. But the God I believe in, aka Christian God is one that cannot be proven, and resides in your heart. He told us we have to believe by faith, and love people, and love Him.
So if you are looking for a sign, then it's most likely going to be a subjective one at best. Being a sarcastic Atheist probably won't help you, but who am I to judge, we each have our own paths. I know my path was pretty fucked up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 06-28-2010 12:12 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 06-29-2010 4:25 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 43 of 122 (568463)
07-06-2010 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
06-29-2010 4:25 AM


"Jumped Up Chimpanzee" writes:
Therefore, if it is true that he appeared before, it is true that he can prove his own existence. And with ease.
So why not appear now?
Well first off, nothing is ever really proven.
Secondly, when He last appeared, He said to believe in Him by faith.
Even if you experience a miracle, there is always another explanation it seems. So it seems to me God set up the current situation so that we have to have faith to some degree. Even if He appeared to you in the middle of the night, the distinct possibility remains that you would deny it in the morning, and explain it away. You would be just like the Jews in the desert who forgot all the things God did for them. I think it is because of people like that (myself included) that He may have changed things around a bit.
Asking Christians why God doesn't prove His existence, is the biggest hypocritical comment for an atheist to say.
When people say that, they sound like pre-programmed robots from college.
Will the sun rise tomorrow?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 06-29-2010 4:25 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-06-2010 4:32 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 46 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-06-2010 10:00 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 65 of 122 (568963)
07-19-2010 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
07-06-2010 4:32 AM


"Jumped Up Chimpanzee" writes:
Why would he appear in the middle of the night, when you're most likely alone and in a sleepy, dreamy state? What's he trying to do anyway, scare you the Hell out of you? (That would make sense, I suppose.)
Why not appear in the daylight in front of large crowds?
Well it did that according to the stories in the bible, and as soon as a little time went by, they stopped believing in Him again. I ask myself the same questions some times. What I think is maybe He got tired of showing up, and then having us lose faith time and time again. So then because He knew how things would be, He sent His Son and changed the rules. He became less harsh on us, but then made us have to believe in Him by faith. denying or believing in God is a personal thing, between you and God.
And why not hang around? At least stay for a coffee. Why can he only appear for only a few seconds? Who makes these rules up?
Well His Son had some wine with us. When He left, He deposited the Holy Spirit. Obviously you can't see that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-06-2010 4:32 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-19-2010 11:03 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 66 of 122 (568969)
07-19-2010 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Dr Adequate
07-06-2010 10:00 AM


"Dr Adequate" writes:
Hasn't that story always struck you as monstrously implausible? I mean, the Jews get to see the plague of blood, the plague of frogs, the plague of lice, the plague of flies, the plague of livestock, the plague of boils, the plague of hail, the plague of locusts, the plague of darkness, the death of the firstborn, the parting of the Red Sea, the rain of manna, the miracle of Horeb, the pillar of smoke by day and fire by night ... and they remain profoundly unimpressed. Yahweh, they think, is not so much, and they needn't worry about pissing him off by making their own god and worshiping that.
I agree, never understood it. But then again, my own faith wonders from time to time, and I've felt some very strong things in my life, and experienced my own miracles. Believing, and staying strong in your faith is pretty hard. So then maybe it wasn't so hard for them to lose faith. 40 years in a desert can make you weak, and break even the strongest of people down.
Meanwhile, today, when God never shows up (and you get all offended if someone suggests he might think to put in an appearance once in a while) this same god has 2.2 billion worshipers based just on something they read in a book. Which is rather less impressive.
Well I don't get offended, you just made that one up. I can't speak for God, I can only give my opinion.
The bible specifically says we are to believe by faith, so I am not expecting Him to show up, until He returns (whenever that is).
I used to get angry that He didn't show up. But I did not understand about the Holy Spirit.
Now, accepting for the sake of argument the magical elements of the Exodus story, does the behavior of the Jews sound remotely like anything anyone would ever actually do? It's more implausible than the miracles themselves.
I don't take the stories of the OT as fact. They could be, they might not. It is the morals of those stories that are important. I've spent just a few posts debating those morals here.
To this day, I see the Jews (hasidic jews) living in a weird way. They dress the part, and have all these dam rules, but then cheat and steal and lie to our government. These traditions(dressing and rules) have gone on for thousands of years. It's almost like a continuation of what happened in the desert. It wouldn't bother me at all, but they come across as extremely hypocritical. But so what, we are all hypocritical at times...right? The mistake is looking towards man for God, when we should be looking towards God for God.
Probing me with these silly questions won't reveal God to you. So all I can say is when I looked, I did not find Him either, but I kept looking, and then He came to me.
Does it change anything? well it tweaked me a little, and I have struggled how to convey the love I feel from God to others. The trick is prayer. True love does not criticize, judge, or condemn, it just loves. It gives hope.
Even if you don't believe in God, isn't loving people the RIGHT thing to do? How deep is that love? Can you forgive? Do you not want to believe in God because you are not ready to follow His rule of loving people beyond what you are capable of? Do you seek a greater love? Is it too much work for you, or do you prefer the status quo?
That's what it is all about. It's not about seeing proof of His existence.
It's not about proving the stories of the OT.
It's about knowing that you do not need to go to a temple to be in God's presence like the OT. The temple is you.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-06-2010 10:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-20-2010 4:53 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 68 of 122 (569014)
07-19-2010 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
07-19-2010 11:03 AM


"Jumped Up Chimpanzee" writes:
OK, so maybe his son had a bit more stamina for the party than he did, but he still left. Is the earth not good enough for them? Do they find us boring?
Couldn't they at least visit for Christmas? We all have to put up with boring relatives once in a while.
Acts 1
1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
These bible verses pretty much answer your question, and sum up what I've been saying. God stopped showing up, and Jesus left, but deposited the Holy Spirit. Which is subjective, and cannot be proven. That's all there is. Which IMO isn't bad, relatively speaking.
I get your sarcasm, really I do, but beneath those comments are real concerns.
Just focus on what you believe in your heart. If you don't believe, then that is your path. God speaks to us in our hearts through the Holy Spirit. REAL Christians, like mother Theresa, act on that. Not every Christian is an idiot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-19-2010 11:03 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-20-2010 5:32 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 71 by Granny Magda, posted 07-20-2010 6:23 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 75 of 122 (572672)
08-07-2010 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dr Adequate
07-20-2010 4:53 AM


"Dr Adequate" writes:
Me neither. But then why refer to the events in Exodus if you don't think that they actually happened?
What specifically are you talking about?
There are good morals to be had in those stories if you stop taking shit our of context.
You wrote:
Asking Christians why God doesn't prove His existence, is the biggest hypocritical comment for an atheist to say.
When people say that, they sound like pre-programmed robots from college.
To me, this sounded a little testy.
No. What is testy is atheists asking for God to show Himself.
What, all of them?
I don't know. That would be racist of me if I thought that. But all the ones I have dealt with so far are cheating the government. I know for a fact.
Yes. But I see no evidence for a supreme ruler of the universe who agrees with me on this.
Well the fact that Jesus came and told us this was correct, and that He said the Holy Spirit will guide us in these beliefs, and that you feel it, is in fact evidence, however subjective it may be.
It would be jolly nice if the universe was ruled by a supreme and adorable King who was Love and Mercy and Wisdom and Truth all wrapped into one. It just doesn't look that way, does it?
Does a child's parents love them? do things done out of love to a child always seem like love to a child?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-20-2010 4:53 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 76 of 122 (572674)
08-07-2010 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
07-20-2010 5:32 AM


"Jumped Up Chimpanzee" writes:
There is not a shred of evidence that before the "Holy Spirit" was supposedly deposited on us, that humans were incapable of loving and caring for each other. It's the same as the story of Moses sharing the 10 Commandments. It just wouldn't have been possible for humans to have survived as a species up to that point if they hadn't already evolved and learnt how to co-exist.
I am not exactly sure, but I think the Holy Spirit did exist before Jesus. But it may have only been available to the righteous, such as Moses.
Of course people loved and cared for each other, that was what all those rules were about in the OT.
Not everyone knew how to co-exist, and things were pretty barbaric back the day YO.
I'm all in favour of more love and goodwill, but we must have already had the innate ability for this - and acted upon it - way before someone claimed the credit for giving it to us.
God is love, and created us out of love. Do trees love? Where did this ability come from? It just evolved? Of course it did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 07-20-2010 5:32 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by bluescat48, posted 08-07-2010 11:21 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 82 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 08-08-2010 9:53 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 77 of 122 (572675)
08-07-2010 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Granny Magda
07-20-2010 6:23 AM


Re: Mother Teresa; Sacred Cow
"Granny Magda" writes:
Mother Teresa was a bitch. Honestly.
I wouldn't know really, I was under the impression she was a good person. I have not ever heard anything bad about her, and her accomplishments were thought to be great.
I don't know how true those accusations are, and I don't have time, or the resources to accurately assess that, but suffice to say, it takes 7 truths to get rid of one lie. And if Mother Theresa spent her whole life doing the best she could trying to help people, then this bad mouthing is a tragedy. I see it all the time with genuine people who get accused of things they never did. Just look at that black lady and how she was called a racist, and what it did to her.
I mean if she did bad, then I wasn't obviously talking about that. That would suck anyway if that was true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Granny Magda, posted 07-20-2010 6:23 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Granny Magda, posted 08-08-2010 11:41 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 85 of 122 (572989)
08-09-2010 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Granny Magda
08-08-2010 11:41 AM


Re: Mother Teresa; Sacred Cow
"Granny Magda" writes:
I hope that you will think twice about using MT as an example of a good Christian in future.
Well of course. As I mentioned, that was the first thing I ever heard bad about her. It would be a shame though if she really was trying to be good, and people can spoil that by making up lies, or distorting truths about her. It kind of does not make sense to me to dedicate your whole life to helping people, and then be that corrupt, or have any kind of corruption going on. I also don't see anything wrong with taking money from a corrupt leader, as long as she was putting the money to good use. That happens often in the missionary world, and in help organizations working in foreign corrupt countries. I know about it first hand.
I mean really, what was her motives to be bad?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Granny Magda, posted 08-08-2010 11:41 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 86 of 122 (572991)
08-09-2010 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by bluescat48
08-07-2010 11:21 AM


"bluescat48" writes:
You got that right. Just look at Joshua, out to destroy all of Canaan. Oh that was alright since he was doing his barbaric god's will.
Killing people is never "alright", and understanding God's will is never what we think it is, or should be. After all, God put His own Son to suffer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by bluescat48, posted 08-07-2010 11:21 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Dogmafood, posted 08-11-2010 7:16 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 88 by bluescat48, posted 08-11-2010 8:59 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 89 of 122 (573630)
08-12-2010 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Dogmafood
08-11-2010 7:16 AM


"Dogmafood" writes:
Why is that?
Because His ways are not our ways.
Isaiah 55:8-9 (New International Version)
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Tell me, does a child understand when he is being punished? Or is he just upset cause he got a time-out?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Dogmafood, posted 08-11-2010 7:16 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 08-12-2010 12:47 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 95 by Dogmafood, posted 08-17-2010 9:30 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 90 of 122 (573632)
08-12-2010 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by bluescat48
08-11-2010 8:59 AM


"bluescat48" writes:
So Joshua must have screwed up, since he thought he was doing god's will?
Are you implying that every time someone kills someone else, it is a screw up?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by bluescat48, posted 08-11-2010 8:59 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by bluescat48, posted 08-12-2010 8:56 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 93 of 122 (574669)
08-17-2010 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by bluescat48
08-12-2010 8:56 AM


"bluescat48" writes:
No only when he thinks he is going the killing for his skydaddy.
Well I am pretty sure that was not the case. Just as it is not the case today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by bluescat48, posted 08-12-2010 8:56 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 94 of 122 (574670)
08-17-2010 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
08-12-2010 12:47 PM


"ringo" writes:
Maybe He needs to step up His game.
said the child to his father

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ringo, posted 08-12-2010 12:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 08-17-2010 11:27 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
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