Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9173 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,565 Year: 4,822/9,624 Month: 170/427 Week: 83/85 Day: 0/20 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
subbie
Member (Idle past 1331 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 46 of 2073 (573521)
08-11-2010 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 7:19 PM


what i dismiss is the lies and misinformation you think is science but until you realize you are basing your conclusions, theories and hypothesis on limited data and excluded information, you will always be looking in the wrong direction and get the wrong answers.
but that is the way it is with secularists, they do not want the truth so they use the field of science as a starwman to exclud contributions that upset their neat little applecart.
This, of course, is what differentiates science from religion. Science actually understands that its conclusions are based on incomplete information. That's why science considers all conclusions to be tentative. Religion, on the other hand, has even less evidence supporting it than science, but takes its conclusions to be beyond question.
Am I the only one who thinks that's really funny?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 7:19 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34045
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 47 of 2073 (573522)
08-11-2010 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 7:19 PM


archaeologist writes:
so all i have to ask is, what are you afraid of that you cannot let others participate who disagree with you?
You are free to participate, but will be expected to present evidence that can be supported. Stuff like "God said it" or "The Bible says" will carry no weight.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 7:19 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 2073 (573527)
08-11-2010 7:41 PM


This, of course, is what differentiates science from religion. Science actually understands that its conclusions are based on incomplete information. That's why science considers all conclusions to be tentative. Religion, on the other hand, has even less evidence supporting it than science, but takes its conclusions to be beyond question
you forget that origins did not go according to modern scientific models. it was a one time supernatural act which means science is the blind leading the blind
You are free to participate, but will be expected to present evidence that can be supported. Stuff like "God said it" or "The Bible says" will carry no weight.
i can present evidence where there is evidence but do not expect me to pull something out of mid air. the Bible is an ancient document thus is evidence and if it says something then it carries as much or more weight as any other ancient document.
we have over 5,000 mss or partial mss. concerning the new testament alone with some written very close to the originals {Bruce: The NT documents: Are they reliable: pg 10}
let me quote:
Perhaps we can appreciate how wealthy the NT is in mss. attestation if we compare the textual material for other ancient works. For Caesar's Gallic War (composed between 58 & 50 BC) there are several extant mss but only nine or ten are good and the oldest is some 900 years later than Caesar's day. Of the 142 books of the Roman History of Livy (59 BC- AD17) only thrity five survive; these are known to us from not more than twenty mss of any consequnece, only one of which, and that containing fragments of Books 111-vi, is as old as the fourth century. of the fourteen books of the Histories of Tacitius (c. AD 100) only four and a half survive; of the sixteen books of his Annals, ten survive in full and two in part. The text of these extant portions of his two great historical works depends entirely on two mss, one of the ninth century and one of the eleventh...The History of Thucydides (c. 460-400BC) is known to us from eight mss, the earliest belonging to c. AD 900 and a few papryus scraps, belonging to the Christian era. The same is true of the History of Herodotus (c. 488-428BC) YET no classical wscholar would listen to an argument that the authenticity of Herodotus or Thucydides is in doubt because the earliest mss of their work which are of any use to us are over 1,300 years later than the originals
(ibid. pg. 11)
so in terms of legitimacy, the Bible trumps all due to the extensive copies we have and the closeness to its original writing; which makes saying 'The Bible says...' very credible and legitimate.
the roblemis that the double standard held to by secularists, evolutionists, compromised christians is that it benefiots them when they want it to and then they discard it when it works against them.
if you want honest discussion then you must remove the double standards and agree to a set of criteria that allows all sources to be used in the same manner and it would be up to the opponent to refute the source withproof or a sound argument supplemented by legitmate and credible quotes or evidence
now this does mean i would accept the inclusion of the wingnut gfringe like van daniken or others like him but they may have a point or two worth discussing.
Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by subbie, posted 08-11-2010 7:48 PM archaeologist has not replied
 Message 52 by jar, posted 08-11-2010 7:50 PM archaeologist has not replied
 Message 71 by Kapyong, posted 08-12-2010 5:46 PM archaeologist has replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 2073 (573528)
08-11-2010 7:47 PM


to supplement dr. bruce's words here is a link to show more credibility to the Bible and its mss.:
http://www.archiesarena.com/subpage184.html
http://www.archiesarena.com/subpage185.html
http://www.archiesarena.com/subpage186.html
http://www.archiesarena.com/subpage187.html
so i submit that using the Bible is as legitimate and credible as using any other ancient document or modern scientific paper or article.

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by subbie, posted 08-11-2010 7:49 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1331 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 50 of 2073 (573530)
08-11-2010 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 7:41 PM


you forget that origins did not go according to modern scientific models. it was a one time supernatural act which means science is the blind leading the blind
All you have done, and keep doing repeatedly, is display your ignorance, and your unwillingness to learn.
Why are you even here?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 7:41 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1331 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 51 of 2073 (573531)
08-11-2010 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 7:47 PM


or modern scientific paper or article
The difference, of course, is that modern scientific papers are based on observations that anyone else can duplicate and either verify or refute. The bible is not.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 7:47 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34045
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 52 of 2073 (573532)
08-11-2010 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 7:41 PM


We know for a fact that life was not a one time creation event and that the Bible is factually wrong on many subjects such as the Biblical Flood, the Exodus, the Conquest of Canaan and so it certainly does not belong in any Science class and it is unlikely that it would be of anything more than peripheral interest in a history course.
I do believe that religion needs to be taught but primarily because of the great harm it has done over time, particularly the Christian religion.
Since religion also plays such a great part in society today I also think that at least the major religions need to be taught in a value neutral basis.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 7:41 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6418
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 53 of 2073 (573544)
08-11-2010 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 6:47 PM


archaeologist writes:
christians do not need predictions, we already know what is going to happen in the future. science has proven over andover that it cannot predict the future (i.e. weather forecasts) and it has a hard time even predicting the past.
I am trying to picture archaeologist hammering away meaninglessly on his keyboard.
Sorry, it doesn't make sense. Either archaeologist is totally, hopelessly insane, or he is predicting that what he types will be transmitted over the internet and appear in a post at evcforum.
I think it's obvious that archaeologist does not have a clue as to what "prediction" means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 6:47 PM archaeologist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by subbie, posted 08-11-2010 8:45 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1331 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 54 of 2073 (573546)
08-11-2010 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by nwr
08-11-2010 8:41 PM


I think it's obvious he doesn't know what a lot of words mean.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by nwr, posted 08-11-2010 8:41 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 55 of 2073 (573558)
08-11-2010 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by archaeologist
08-11-2010 8:55 AM


Not responding to the tough questions?
I see you have responded since I asked for evidence to these claims. Surprisingly you didn't respond
go to the nurseries and see for yourself that life reproduces exactly as genesis said.
we have museums filled with archaeological evidence supporting the biblical record.
Can't back up your claims?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by archaeologist, posted 08-11-2010 8:55 AM archaeologist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by hooah212002, posted 08-11-2010 10:01 PM Theodoric has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 878 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 56 of 2073 (573562)
08-11-2010 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Theodoric
08-11-2010 9:38 PM


Re: Not responding to the tough questions?
Duh. Did you forget the Creation Museum?

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Theodoric, posted 08-11-2010 9:38 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Theodoric, posted 08-11-2010 10:03 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 57 of 2073 (573563)
08-11-2010 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by hooah212002
08-11-2010 10:01 PM


Re: Not responding to the tough questions?
Do you really thing he would present that as his evidence? I sure hope he does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by hooah212002, posted 08-11-2010 10:01 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by hooah212002, posted 08-11-2010 10:07 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 878 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 58 of 2073 (573564)
08-11-2010 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Theodoric
08-11-2010 10:03 PM


Re: Not responding to the tough questions?
Well, that's the only museum that provides any "evidence" for any global flud.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Theodoric, posted 08-11-2010 10:03 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by bluescat48, posted 08-11-2010 10:36 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4266 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 59 of 2073 (573567)
08-11-2010 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by hooah212002
08-11-2010 10:07 PM


Re: Not responding to the tough questions?
Well, that's the only museum that provides any "evidence" for any global flud.
The only thing I can see from the Creo Museum is that the curators believe that myths are truths. What evidence is there in that museum that validates the floodd or any thing else the creos believe in?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by hooah212002, posted 08-11-2010 10:07 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by hooah212002, posted 08-11-2010 10:44 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 878 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 60 of 2073 (573568)
08-11-2010 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by bluescat48
08-11-2010 10:36 PM


Re: Not responding to the tough questions?
Dinosaurs walked with man, the ark is an archeological fact, just for starters. I have seen videos of people who visited and took the tour. They reported that the museum purports these to be factual events.
{ABE}
What evidence is there in that museum that validates the floodd or any thing else the creos believe in?
NOTHING! What I said was in jest. There is absolutely no proof for anything any creo says.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by bluescat48, posted 08-11-2010 10:36 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024