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Author Topic:   The evolution of an atheist.
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 827 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 9 of 280 (573671)
08-12-2010 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by GDR
08-12-2010 10:56 AM


I have read and watched debates by theologians as to whether the resurrection was historical or metaphorical. I personally have found the argument for it being historical more convincing than the argument against it and have become convinced of it.
Christopher Hitchens does a stupendous job of debating against the historicity of the resurrection in Collision.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

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 Message 3 by GDR, posted 08-12-2010 10:56 AM GDR has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 827 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 34 of 280 (574349)
08-15-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Bikerman
08-15-2010 12:29 PM


Let us not forget the hordes of dead holy-men who walked the earth then as well. That's an easy way to hand wave that away: only morons were the ones who saw it happen. Sounds similar to the reasoning behind why only backwoods rednecks get abducted by aliens.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Bikerman, posted 08-15-2010 12:29 PM Bikerman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Bikerman, posted 08-15-2010 1:09 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 827 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 104 of 280 (575067)
08-18-2010 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by GDR
08-18-2010 7:39 PM


How would a biologist determine the difference between that and one that is not designed or guided. Scientific study is agnostic.
Until you have evidence for either the design process or the designer, why would you assume the nature of such a force? Why would you assume such a force exists? Saying it "looks" designed is not sufficient. That still seems an awful lot like the god of the gaps. Thus far, every unknown discovery in science has ended up with a natural explanation. Every time design was inferred (Galileo, Newton for example), new knowledge was acquired and the designer was relegated to the natural force pile.
Absolutely, but it just seems to me that with the establishment of relativity and QM as solid theories that it opened up a multitude of new horizons to explore.
This is a problem, why? Isn't it "neat" or "fun" to learn about the world we live in? What fun would it be to know all of the ins and outs and workings of the universe? There would be nothing left to discover.
With the limited understanding I have of both fields I can't see that there should be any real need to reconcile them. I find them complimentary just as they are. Science answers questions concerning the physical and religion attempts to answer questions that are beyond the physical, with the belief that it actually exists.
That is one of the most honest things a I have ever heard come out of a creationist's mouth (keyboard?). Kudos to you. Now, just keep religion out of science and all is well.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by GDR, posted 08-18-2010 7:39 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by GDR, posted 08-18-2010 8:53 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 827 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 105 of 280 (575068)
08-18-2010 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by GDR
08-18-2010 7:39 PM


double post
Edited by hooah212002, : double post

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by GDR, posted 08-18-2010 7:39 PM GDR has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 827 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 113 of 280 (575096)
08-18-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by GDR
08-18-2010 8:53 PM


The designer has never been relegated to the natural force pile. I'm sure that some people have had to adjust their thinking, but as a Christian I've done that many times in my life. I'd say that most of my views have evolved and changed since the time I became a Christian in my 30's. I'm sure that they will continue to evolve.
You referenced a biologist, so I was speaking of the scientists in the past who alluded to a creator when their knowledge was exhausted. I did not mean you in particular. In the scientists sense (as I referenced Galileo and Newton), the creator very much has been relegated to the natural cause pile.
Thank you but I'm not sure just how it is that you are using the term creationist. I think most of us on this board assume a creationist believes in a 6 day creation 6000 or so years ago. I don't fall into that category. I'm a creationist to the extent that I believe that God created this world and all that is in it, but I don't believe that the Bible is to be read like a science text.
I stand corrected. Forgive me. I have not read every one of your posts, but you speak of an intelligent designer or creator, so I immediately think creationist as I do not see much of a difference. I did not mean to offend.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by GDR, posted 08-18-2010 8:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by GDR, posted 08-18-2010 9:13 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 827 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 115 of 280 (575100)
08-18-2010 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by GDR
08-18-2010 9:13 PM


I don't think that either Galileo or Newton thought that the creator was relegated to the natural cause pile as they were both Christian.
Not what I meant. Both Galileo and Newton attributed the workings of the universe to a creator once they were at the limit of their knowledge of it. Then, once new knowledge was gained, the bits they attributed to a creator WAS put in the natural pile.
Here:
Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the God of the Gaps
To be honest it never occured to me that there was any reason to take offence.
For an IDist with your level of intellect and reasoning, it is rather offensive.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by GDR, posted 08-18-2010 9:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by GDR, posted 08-18-2010 9:42 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 827 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 165 of 280 (575388)
08-19-2010 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by GDR
08-19-2010 7:08 PM


It would simply answer all the questions instead of theorizing the idea of many, if not infinite parallel universes exist, and we just happen to be in the right one.
No, we just happen to be in one of them. It is no more "right" than the ocean vent is "right" for the microbes that live there, or the tree is "right" for he sloth that lives there. This is just where we are and when we are.
The naturalistic explanation for the scientifically determined fine tuning of the universe seems to be the anthropic principle. There seem to be various ways of dealing with this including a multi-verse theory. These are all theories and may or may not at some point be proven. However, if you want to follow Occam's razor it seems to me that this simplest explanation is that God did it.
How is throwing in a being capable of creating this universe NOT more complicated? If anything, a designer of of this universe is just as complicated as a multi-verse or branes. I fear you only say that because a deity is easier to swallow given your faith. As a secularist, Occam's Razor leads me the other way and tells me that a being of infinite power is the most complicated.

Your god believes in Unicorns

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by GDR, posted 08-19-2010 7:08 PM GDR has not replied

  
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