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Author Topic:   The Kalam cosmological argument
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(3)
Message 3 of 177 (573935)
08-13-2010 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Deleted
08-13-2010 5:47 AM


PrinceGhaldir writes:
I would like to hear what you think of this/where the problems are in this argument.
I think it is a flawed argument, and this is why:
Syllogism 1
Premise 1: Entropy always grows (second law of thermodynamics)
Wrong, entropy can decrease, at least, in an open system. And even in a closed system, entropy can locally decrease.
Premise 2: The universe has not reached total entropy.
Obviously.
Conclusion :The universe has started/has not excisted for an infinite amount of time.
"Has started" is a loaded term, and might not be the right way of puttng it when concerning the universe.
Syllogism 2
Premise 1: The universe has started.
Again, "started" is probably not the right term.
Premise 2: Everything that happens/starts has a cause.
Unevidenced.
Conclusion : The universe has a cause (to excist/what started it)
There is no evidence for this. Further, "cause" implies a "before", there was no "before" the big bang, just like there is no "north" of the north pole.
Syllogism 3
Premise 1: The universe has a cause
Unevidenced.
Premise 2: Within spacetime there is the law of causality (cause and effect)
Exactly. Within spacetime there is. The universe is spacetime.
Conclusion: The "First cause" isnt inside spacetime.
It hasn't even been shown there is a first cause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Deleted, posted 08-13-2010 5:47 AM Deleted has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Deleted, posted 08-15-2010 1:54 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 9 of 177 (574463)
08-16-2010 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Deleted
08-15-2010 1:54 PM


PrinceGhaldir writes:
But premise 1/2 can be replaced by anything that proves the universe is not infinite, like: if the universe excisted for an infinite time, we could not have a tomorrow. As we would have more than infinite days.
Well no, like has been pointed out, you can add to infinity, it would simply stay infinity. There are more than 1 infinities, and some are larger than others (no, I cannot explain this (sorry), at least not like it should be explained with math equations).
But the question I have, is: what caused the big bang?
Because it either must have a cause, or a supernatural power created it.
Cavediver explained this.
To translate in your example: When you're reached the north pole, you've found the cause for it being the north pole the magnetic field.
That's not the "cause" of the North Pole. In fact, the magnetic North pole is not the actual North Pole, which is the axial North pole. The "cause" of the North pole (if it can be called that) is that that is the point hrough which the axis of the Earth runs.
If you've reached the big bang, you would find the cause
If you'd reach the big bang, you'd be dead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Deleted, posted 08-15-2010 1:54 PM Deleted has seen this message but not replied

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2317 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(2)
Message 26 of 177 (575219)
08-19-2010 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Nuimshaan
08-18-2010 8:10 PM


Hello Nuimshaan and welcome to EvC!
I've seen you've gotten quite some responses from people, I just felt like adding to them.
Nuimshaan writes:
I've always looked at the Big Bang theory as being incomplete at best.
Big bang theory is complete. It desccribes the universe from t=10-43 seconds and onwards.
It is generally accepted the theory means this:
No, not really, let me see if I can correct it for you.
One day there was a huge explosion in vacant space.
No, there was a rapid expansion of space and time itself, there was no space yet, and no explosion to happen within it.
And the pieces of this explosion dispursed through space with angular momentum.
No. Since there was no explosion, there were no "pieces", what was there was superheated plasma.
They also cooled off and formed hard round balls of matter.
No. They first formed hydrogen and helium, the hard round balls wouldn't come about until much later.
One of those balls of cooled off matter is the Earth.
No. The earth is a result of the acumulation of matter of the accretion disc left after the sun formed.
Going back to the beginning of this theory, leaves one wondering where the Big Bomb came from.
There was no "Big Bomb".
Of course the currently held theory does not address the origin of the Big Bomb.
Since no one claims there should be a "Big Bomb" (except you, of course), no one is addressing it.
When any intelligent person discusses the origin of the Big Bomb, they immediately disprove the Big Bang.
Since the "Big Bomb" has nothing to do with the Big Bang, I wouldn't see how.
Why?
Indeed.
Because, you are admitting there had to have been a time before Big Bang that a Big Bomb was formed slowly from highly reactive ingredients.
Perhaps, but no one is saying there had to be a "Big Bomb".
Very flammable if you will.
Since there was no "Big Bomb", not really, no.
So when I ask those staunch Big Bang supporters the simple question:
Where did the Big Bomb come from?
They disprove Big Bang if they attempt to answer it rationally.
I'm a "Big Bang supporter", and if you ask me that question, I would say: "What "Big Bomb"?"
If you yourself believe a Big Bomb was slowly formed through time with highly flammable ingredients, and then one day exploded in the event called Big Bang............You have just admitted Big Bang was NOT how the world BEGAN.
I don't know anyone who proposes that.
You have admitted that the slow forming of a Big Bomb did in fact occur before any Bang was noted. And any theory of creation must get to the root of the beginning, or it is not a theory of CREATION.....
No one admits that, making the rest of your point rather moot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Nuimshaan, posted 08-18-2010 8:10 PM Nuimshaan has not replied

Replies to this message:
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