Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,835 Year: 4,092/9,624 Month: 963/974 Week: 290/286 Day: 11/40 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is Theistic Evolutionist An Oxymoron?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 8 of 83 (575434)
08-20-2010 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
08-19-2010 10:12 PM


quote:
I was reading a thread of another topic, a comment by Meldinor that he, being an evolutionist and a theist, had a problem being called a "theistic evolutionist" because, as he put it, "I don't like to describe myself as a "theistic evolutionist". The term implies a belief that evolution requires a 'divine tinkerer' to work. And I don't think that's been scientifically evidenced."
Meldinoor's interpretation, then is that a "theistic evolutionist" is someone who believes that a God intervened in the course of evolution. Since "theism" means either "belief that there is a God or gods" or (when opposed to Deism) "belief that there is a God or gods who intervene in this universe" the term is clearly not oxymoronic on that count. On the other hand this same belief is very close to modern evolutionary theory (and none of the interventions need actually contradict the theory - they may simply guarantee outcomes which were possible but would not otherwise occur). Michael Behe as of his last book appears to follow a belief of this sort, although he does insist that certain evolutionary stages require divine intervention.
So on this interpretation the term is not obviously oxymoronic, and is is certainly theistic.
The more common interpretation is that the term refers to the belief that God set up the universe so that it's ordinary operations bring about the desired results. While this view is consistent with Deism it does not rule out intervention in human history so it cannot be said that it is opposed to theism. And it fully accepts evolutionary theory, so this reading is certainly not oxymoronic.
quote:
I think it is an oxymoron. I see it as a vain attempt to gain the best of both ideologies; that of secularisim which essentially absolves one from contradicting establishment scientific academia and that of theism which offers a purpose for existence and a hope of a blissful existence beyond this life.
I don't think that it is fair to describe even science as an ideology and to describe theism in that way is absurd.
quote:
It is aximoronic in that it implies a creationless deity, contradictory to the Biblical record, essentially reducing that record to the status of myth. On the other hand it promotes a godless explanation of origins relative to all that exists.
What do you think?
Both Meldinoor's reading and the more common reading would generally be accompanied by the view that the universe was created by (a) God. Meldninoor's reading might well include the view that the first life was created by God. Since neither point contradicts evolutionary theory we can see that the term usually refers to someone who DOES believe in a creator God.
Since even the narrower reading of "theism" is not restricted to religions who consider the Bible sacred, contradicting the Biblical creation myths cannot be considered an issue. Even among Judaism, Christianity and Islam and their offshoots there are many who do not insist that those myths must be accepted as literally true (not least due to the clear contradictions between the two accounts).
So your argument that the term is an oxymoron is based on the assumption that all theists must agree with your doctrines. That assumption is certainly false.
Edited by PaulK, : Corrected a couple of typoes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 08-19-2010 10:12 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2010 10:06 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 12 of 83 (575523)
08-20-2010 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
08-20-2010 8:42 AM


quote:
God being a generic term, I would agree...
For the purposes of defining "theist" and "theistic" "God" is a generic term. Thus, this is the only relevant part of your post and it concedes the point. The term "theistic evolutionist" is not an oxymoron.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2010 8:42 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 31 of 83 (575802)
08-21-2010 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
08-20-2010 10:06 PM


Re: Theists Who View The Bible As Mythology
quote:
Paul, you, Jar, Meldinoor and a host of other professing theist evolutionis all have the same problem.
I'm not a theist. I simply point out the fact that you were utterly wrong to suggest that "theistic evolutionist" was an oxymoron.
quote:
You all try to apply a pseudo-Biblcal theism, all the while denying everything supernatural in the record which happens to be most of the book, supernatural aspects being tenets of all 66 books of the Bible. You're all deluding yourselves into professing Biblical theism when in fact you insult/blaspheme Jehovah, the Biblical designer, reducing his holy book to the status of mythology.
In other words your problem is not with "theistic evolution" as such. Your problem is that you don't like Christians who take a different view of the Bible from yours. You would have done far better to actually start a topic on that rather than trying to argue that the term "theistic evolutionist" is oxymoronic. There is nothing, nothing in the term that ties it to Christianity at all.
What is more you cannot assess another's interpretation of the Bible merely on the question of whether they accept the two creation stories in Genesis and try to harmonise them into a single account. If Christian, they might well believe in some of the Gospel miracles, for instance. Maybe even some OT miracles, too.
And you're a fine one to accuse others of blasphemy when you regularly twist and misrepresent the Bible which you claim to be God's word (being most upset when others read it and find that it does not say what you claim) and even mangle God's very name.
It seems that Ringo was entirely correct. Your real issue with theistic evolutionists is that they dare to disagree with YOU.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2010 10:06 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 08-23-2010 9:15 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 35 of 83 (576216)
08-23-2010 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
08-23-2010 9:15 AM


Re: Theists Who View The Bible As Mythology
quote:
You're totally spinning my position. I like many Christians who disagree with me. I consider them as brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus if they have received him as savior, regardless of their interpretation of Genesis.
You're the one who started this thread to accuse them of adopting a self-contradictory position. You're the one who classed their views as blasphemy, not me.
quote:
The theist-evolutionist essentially denies the Genesis record. There is nothing in it that is indicative of the status of myth. All one needs do is read the book of Genesis in order to see that is not intended as myth any more than any other Biblical book was intended as mythical.
Of course the creation accounts are obvious myths with their primordial ocean, geocentric cosmology, talking snakes and the like. The Flood and babel stories are obvious myths, too.
quote:
Really? What theist-evolutionist here at EvC has ever admitted to one miracle in the Bible? Can you cite some examples?
I guess you left reason and logic at home again. Even if none of the few theistic evolutionists here said that they believed in any Biblical miracles it doesn't mean that all Christian theistic evolutionists deny all of the Biblical miracles. The fact that you can't remember such a statement isn't even a very good argument when it comes to dealing with those who DO post here.
quote:
These are below the belt blind assertions which have been debated on other threads relative to topic.
By which you mean that they are facts that have been demonstrated many times. And I can certainly provide proof of THAT. And if you are going to accuse others of blasphemy simply for taking a different view it seems rather relevant that you have no problem blaspheming yourself - or at least blaspheming by the standards you claim to believe in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 08-23-2010 9:15 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Nij, posted 08-23-2010 9:54 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 38 of 83 (576221)
08-23-2010 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Nij
08-23-2010 9:54 AM


Re: Playing nice?
quote:
Are you? Because Buz is only defending his position, and he could be justified in calling at least one of your remarks below the belt or a cheapshot.
He might IF he wasn't the one who started making accusations of blasphemy and if he didn't have a long record of misrepresenting the Bible. Unfortunately he did and he does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Nij, posted 08-23-2010 9:54 AM Nij has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Nij, posted 08-23-2010 10:20 AM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 65 of 83 (577104)
08-27-2010 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
08-27-2010 7:49 AM


quote:
LOL. Click on Buzsaw sometime when you've got a few hours to read my history. When you come to one that's failed, go ahead. Substantially refute it's fulfillment or failure to be on track for relatively near fulfillment.
That's already been done. For all of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2010 7:49 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2010 8:22 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 69 of 83 (577123)
08-27-2010 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Buzsaw
08-27-2010 8:22 AM


Re: Alleging Refutation
quote:
Alleges the dogged secularistic skeptic, catagorically denying all evidence to the contrary.
Yawn. I've refuted everything you've put up. It's all there in the threads. The threads that YOU challenged Jar to go and look at. And I'm ready to do it again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2010 8:22 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 75 of 83 (577314)
08-28-2010 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Buzsaw
08-27-2010 8:32 PM


Re: Fulfilled prophecies.
quote:
PaulK and Jar, Thousands of Biblical scholars far more advanced and educated in theology would agree with me that these prophecies have valid fulfillments. Your assertions are bare assertions. I know your minds are closed. Let open minded readers decide for themselves. This is not the thread to delve into specific prophecies in depth.
And yet you cannot defend even one. Your "thousands" apparently failed to equip you with even a single successful prophecy that you could defend. In fact, is it not the case that your preferred "experts" are people that many Christians would rightfully dismiss as loons ? The sort of people who promote nonsense like the idea that UPC barcodes are the "Mark of the Beast".
quote:
As I said, you're welcome to bring up any threads in which these prophecies have been debated. I'll not get bogged down in responding to nonsense and bare assertions but if you have some fresh substantial evidence refuting fulfillment claims, bring them forth.
Let us note that YOU are offering no more than bare assertions. And let it be noted that apparently your invitation to reopen threads - aside from being an attempt to shift the burden of proof - is apparently only open if we add "fresh evidence" - which we don't need to do.
You claimed that there were successful prophecies. Your only support was to tell people to go digging in the archives. Something you are clearly not prepared to do yourself. Clearly you are hoping that an "open minded" reader will simply believe you instead of looking. So I think that it is worth pointing out the truth - that if they do look they will find you refuted again and again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2010 8:32 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024