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# If complexity requires design, where did the Deity come from?

Author Topic:   If complexity requires design, where did the Deity come from?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member

 Message 61 of 111 (566634) 06-25-2010 3:24 PM Reply to: Message 59 by dennis78006-25-2010 3:17 PM

Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
I'll tell you what I think it is, then you tell me I'm wrong. Deal?
The Law of Entropy refers to the amount of disorder, or order in a system.
But it must be a CLOSED system. Otherwise, you could never boil water... but we can because the system isn't closed and heat can be added to it.
The Earth isn't a closed system either. The sun is constantly adding heat. Therefore, the entropy can decreased.
that the likely hood of order by natural process is extremely minute.
No, that's false... Snowflakes.
Order from disorder via a natural process.

 This message is a reply to: Message 59 by dennis780, posted 06-25-2010 3:17 PM dennis780 has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 63 by Theodoric, posted 06-25-2010 3:45 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied Message 64 by dennis780, posted 06-26-2010 2:48 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9388
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9

 Message 62 of 111 (566647) 06-25-2010 3:43 PM Reply to: Message 59 by dennis78006-25-2010 3:17 PM

Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
The Law of Entropy refers to the amount of disorder, or order in a system. If states that left alone, the amount of disodered possibilities are many more than ordered ones.
Wrong! It says nothing of the sort.
quote:
It says that heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one or, equivalently, that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease.
Source
Entropy is not the same thing as disorder.
Stop reading the creo sites. They are lying to you.
Also, keep in mind. The earth is not a closed system so your argument fails on that alone.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

 This message is a reply to: Message 59 by dennis780, posted 06-25-2010 3:17 PM dennis780 has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9388
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9

 Message 63 of 111 (566649) 06-25-2010 3:45 PM Reply to: Message 61 by New Cat's Eye06-25-2010 3:24 PM

Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
No, that's false... Snowflakes.
Silly CS. Don't you know each is created by hand by an angel.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

 This message is a reply to: Message 61 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-25-2010 3:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010

 Message 64 of 111 (566742) 06-26-2010 2:48 PM Reply to: Message 61 by New Cat's Eye06-25-2010 3:24 PM

Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
"The Earth isn't a closed system either. The sun is constantly adding heat. Therefore, the entropy can decreased."
Decreased to a degree. Your point being? The Amount of disordered possibilities is still an unthinkable number, even in an open system.
"Order from disorder via a natural process. "
In order for less entropy to occur, work needs to occur, and entropy in any system must increase in the system. This happens when heat is extracted from the water molecule, and heat is added to the system. This is the work. The hexagonal shape of snowflakes is nothing more than the 'V" shaped ice molecules bound together. The shape of the snowflake is dependant on the rate of temperature change, and has been measured. One could also argue that snowflakes are not ordered, since no two are alike, and would be a prime example of extreme entropy. Either way.
Chemical change due to temperature is not order. It is a physical law.

 This message is a reply to: Message 61 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-25-2010 3:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 65 by cavediver, posted 06-26-2010 3:28 PM dennis780 has replied Message 66 by Theodoric, posted 06-26-2010 4:26 PM dennis780 has replied Message 67 by anglagard, posted 06-27-2010 1:45 AM dennis780 has not replied Message 68 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2010 11:28 AM dennis780 has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3780 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005

 Message 65 of 111 (566745) 06-26-2010 3:28 PM Reply to: Message 64 by dennis78006-26-2010 2:48 PM

Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
One could also argue that snowflakes are not ordered, since no two are alike, and would be a prime example of extreme entropy.
Extreme entropy? Hmmm, so you are saying that 10kg of water vapour has lower entropy than 10kg of snowflakes? Are you sure? And yet which do you think looks more ordered...? The 2nd law is not for amateurs and is certainly not some observational bullshit about "order" and "disorder".
Chemical change due to temperature is not order. It is a physical law.
Then I guess you better define "order" so we know what you are talking about...

 This message is a reply to: Message 64 by dennis780, posted 06-26-2010 2:48 PM dennis780 has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 69 by dennis780, posted 08-20-2010 9:53 PM cavediver has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9388
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9

 Message 66 of 111 (566751) 06-26-2010 4:26 PM Reply to: Message 64 by dennis78006-26-2010 2:48 PM

Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
I see you still refuse to actually look at scientific sources for your information about science. This whole order, disorder crap you creos keep pushing is bullshit.
Like I have told you before, go to a non-creo site. That way you will get a true scientific explanation about thermodynamics. Not creo bullshit.
Again, entropy is not the same as order and disorder. The creo sites are lying to you.
You have been told by many people that you are wrong, but you refuse to do the research to prove your assertion or to learn where you are wrong. You are like a mindless robot and/or are delusional. You can not change the law to be what you want. It is what it is. It is not what you claim or want it to be, no matter how many times you claim.
In a nutshell. You are wrong.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

 This message is a reply to: Message 64 by dennis780, posted 06-26-2010 2:48 PM dennis780 has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 70 by dennis780, posted 08-20-2010 9:56 PM Theodoric has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 974 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006

 (1)
 Message 67 of 111 (566771) 06-27-2010 1:45 AM Reply to: Message 64 by dennis78006-26-2010 2:48 PM

Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
dennis780 writes:
One could also argue that snowflakes are not ordered, since no two are alike, and would be a prime example of extreme entropy.
I have seen the old saying "no two snowflakes are alike" many times.
I have also seen the old saying "no two people are alike" many times.
So from your logic, does this mean 'one could argue' humans are disordered and therefore an argument for extreme entropy?
Or essentially, entropy creates complexity? If so, then where does that leave the concept of intelligent design?

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

 This message is a reply to: Message 64 by dennis780, posted 06-26-2010 2:48 PM dennis780 has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member

 Message 68 of 111 (566871) 06-28-2010 11:28 AM Reply to: Message 64 by dennis78006-26-2010 2:48 PM

I'm taking the liberty of introducing the better quote formatting that you refuse to employ.
quote:
The Earth isn't a closed system either. The sun is constantly adding heat. Therefore, the entropy can decreased.
Decreased to a degree. Your point being?
That you're wrong when you think that evolution is some violation of the 2LoT.
The Amount of disordered possibilities is still an unthinkable number, even in an open system.
I'm not sure what you're getting at...
Are you saying that even though the Earth is an open system, evolution is still "too much" for the 2LoT? Aren't you just basing this on an ad-hoc reaction from your personal beliefs?
quote:
Order from disorder via a natural process.
In order for less entropy to occur, work needs to occur, and entropy in any system must increase in the system. This happens when heat is extracted from the water molecule, and heat is added to the system. This is the work.
Huh? That doesn't make any sense at all. What are you trying to say?
One could also argue that snowflakes are not ordered, since no two are alike, and would be a prime example of extreme entropy.
That would be dodging my point. Just take one snowflake... Before forming, we have all the necessary water molecules moving around in a disordered mess. After forming, they have ordered themselves into a pretty little snowflake.
You're claiming that the liklihood of this happening by natural processes is "extremely minute".
Chemical change due to temperature is not order. It is a physical law.
Then I don't know what you're referring to as "order". Please explain.

 This message is a reply to: Message 64 by dennis780, posted 06-26-2010 2:48 PM dennis780 has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 72 by dennis780, posted 08-20-2010 10:12 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010

 Message 69 of 111 (575726) 08-20-2010 9:53 PM Reply to: Message 65 by cavediver06-26-2010 3:28 PM

Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
"And yet which do you think looks more ordered...?"
Thats an interesting statement. I didn't know that opinion counted as science. You could ask that question to 100 people and get varied response, because you are asking for an opinion, not examining, and testing for observable results. The point of this would be to show definitely which contains more entropy, no matter who conducted the experiment.
BTW, glad to see this website was up and running again.

 This message is a reply to: Message 65 by cavediver, posted 06-26-2010 3:28 PM cavediver has not replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010

 Message 70 of 111 (575727) 08-20-2010 9:56 PM Reply to: Message 66 by Theodoric06-26-2010 4:26 PM

Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
A quote from a 'non-creos' website:
"Entropy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics
The second law of thermodynamics (the entropy law or law of entropy) was formulated in the middle of the last century by Clausius and Thomson following Carnot's earlier observation that, like the fall or flow of a stream that turns a mill wheel, it is the "fall" or flow of heat from higher to lower temperatures that motivates a steam engine. The key insight was that the world is inherently active, and that whenever an energy distribution is out of equilibrium a potential or thermodynamic "force" (the gradient of a potential) exists that the world acts spontaneously to dissipate or minimize. All real-world change or dynamics is seen to follow, or be motivated, by this law. So whereas the first law expresses that which remains the same, or is time-symmetric, in all real-world processes the second law expresses that which changes and motivates the change, the fundamental time-asymmetry, in all real-world process. Clausius coined the term "entropy" to refer to the dissipated potential and the second law, in its most general form, states that the world acts spontaneously to minimize potentials (or equivalently maximize entropy), and with this, active end-directedness or time-asymmetry was, for the first time, given a universal physical basis. The balance equation of the second law, expressed as S > 0, says that in all natural processes the entropy of the world always increases, and thus whereas with the first law there is no time, and the past, present, and future are indistinguishable, the second law, with its one-way flow, introduces the basis for telling the difference.
The active nature of the second law is intuitively easy to grasp and empirically demonstrate. If a glass of hot liquid, for example, as shown in Figure 3, is placed in a colder room a potential exists and a flow of heat is spontaneously produced from the cup to the room until it is minimized (or the entropy is maximized) at which point the temperatures are the same and all flows stop."
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 This message is a reply to: Message 66 by Theodoric, posted 06-26-2010 4:26 PM Theodoric has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 71 by Coyote, posted 08-20-2010 10:01 PM dennis780 has not replied Message 73 by Theodoric, posted 08-22-2010 7:15 PM dennis780 has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2243 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008

 Message 71 of 111 (575729) 08-20-2010 10:01 PM Reply to: Message 70 by dennis78008-20-2010 9:56 PM

Re: 2nd law again. Do creos never learn anything?
So?
Do you have a point?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

 This message is a reply to: Message 70 by dennis780, posted 08-20-2010 9:56 PM dennis780 has not replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010

 Message 72 of 111 (575733) 08-20-2010 10:12 PM Reply to: Message 68 by New Cat's Eye06-28-2010 11:28 AM

Wow, this website must have been up for a while, because I'm being bombarded...
lets get to you now:
"Are you saying that even though the Earth is an open system, evolution is still "too much" for the 2LoT? Aren't you just basing this on an ad-hoc reaction from your personal beliefs?"
No. I'm basing it on real calculations from scientific websites.
"Borel's law of probability states that if the odds of an event happening are worse than 1 in 1*10^50, then that event will NEVER HAPPEN. Dr. Harold Morowitz, former professor of biophysics at Yale University, estimated that
the probability of the chance formation of the smallest, simplest form of living organism
known is 1 out of 10^340,000,000. One out of ten to the 340 millionth power is
unimaginable odds. This large figure is a "1" followed by 340,000,000 zeroes. As you can
see, Morowitz' odds against even the simplest life evolving were infinitely more than
1*10^50, making them impossible.
The very popular evolutionist, Dr. Carl Sagan of Cornell University, figured even steeper odds against the simplest life beginning naturally on a planet such as earth. According to Sagan, the probability would be about 1 out of 10^2,000,000,000. Try to imagine ten to the 2 billionth power. Pretty astounding odds. Interestingly, these impossible odds against evolution came from one of the most prominent evolutionists of our time. "
Evolution What Are The Odds | PDF | Odds | Universe
The quote above even shows an evolutionist giving odds that are unbelievable.
"Huh? That doesn't make any sense at all. What are you trying to say?"
This response was to someone else. But it says exactly what it reads, that the work required for less entropy is the heat exchange.
"Before forming, we have all the necessary water molecules moving around in a disordered mess. After forming, they have ordered themselves into a pretty little snowflake."
That depends on your version of 'disordered mess'.
http://www.benbest.com/cryonics/water_molecule.jpg
If that looks disordered to you, then that is an opinion, not a fact. Water molecules freeze the way they do BECAUSE of the shape they maintain in a liquid form. Any further questions?
Oh yes...
"You're claiming that the liklihood of this happening by natural processes is "extremely minute"."
WRONG. If you read the above quote, according to Borels Law, I'm saying it is amazingly impossible.
"Then I don't know what you're referring to as "order". Please explain."
Who said I was arguing order? Am I supposed to do your job too?

 This message is a reply to: Message 68 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2010 11:28 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

 Replies to this message: Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-31-2010 4:51 PM dennis780 has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9388
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9

 Message 73 of 111 (576090) 08-22-2010 7:15 PM Reply to: Message 70 by dennis78008-20-2010 9:56 PM

Is there a point?
Here is my post.
Theodoric writes:
I see you still refuse to actually look at scientific sources for your information about science. This whole order, disorder crap you creos keep pushing is bullshit.
Like I have told you before, go to a non-creo site. That way you will get a true scientific explanation about thermodynamics. Not creo bullshit.
Again, entropy is not the same as order and disorder. The creo sites are lying to you.
You have been told by many people that you are wrong, but you refuse to do the research to prove your assertion or to learn where you are wrong. You are like a mindless robot and/or are delusional. You can not change the law to be what you want. It is what it is. It is not what you claim or want it to be, no matter how many times you claim.
In a nutshell. You are wrong.
How does you cut and paste address this?
By the way you might want to read the forum rules.
quote:
5. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
6. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

 This message is a reply to: Message 70 by dennis780, posted 08-20-2010 9:56 PM dennis780 has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 74 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 6:46 AM Theodoric has replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4913 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010

 Message 74 of 111 (577941) 08-31-2010 6:46 AM Reply to: Message 73 by Theodoric08-22-2010 7:15 PM

Re: Is there a point?
"I see you still refuse to actually look at scientific sources for your information about science. This whole order, disorder crap you creos keep pushing is bullshit."
Prove it.
"go to a non-creo site"
Okay.
quote:
Entropy is a macroscopic property of a system that is a measure of the microscopic disorder within the system. It is an important part of the second law of thermodynamics. Thermodynamic systems are made up of microscopic objects, e.g. atoms or molecules, which "carry" energy. According to the second law of thermodynamics, the thermodynamic entropy is a measure of the amount of energy which does no work during energy conversions.
Entropy - Wikipedia
"Again, entropy is not the same as order and disorder. The creo sites are lying to you."
So is wikipedia?
"It is not what you claim or want it to be, no matter how many times you claim."
Wikipedia seems to disagree with you.
"By the way you might want to read the forum rules."
Thanks. But as long as I 'quote' my source, and list where the information is found, I think it is perfectly valid. But I will try to make my arguements in my own words from now on.
Taking information from creos sites is no better or worse than taking information from evolution sites. Every site contains bias to one viewpoint or another. So you are saying that only information found in evolution friendly websites is true. But that is not the case. There are thousands of websites that contain perfectly valid information, that support an ID viewpoint, just as there are thousands of evolution websites that have perfectly valid information.
To say that both of us are only allowed to gather information from sites that support evolution is illogical, since I could just as easily argue that the sites you get your information from are lying to you, because they support evolution. It is the INFORMATION itself that needs to be factual. If I pull information from a website that is not factual, correct me. I will happily admit defeat if shown evidence for the contrary that makes logical sense.
Until next time, keep fit, and have fun!

 This message is a reply to: Message 73 by Theodoric, posted 08-22-2010 7:15 PM Theodoric has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 75 by ringo, posted 08-31-2010 12:49 PM dennis780 has replied Message 76 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-31-2010 1:17 PM dennis780 has replied Message 77 by Theodoric, posted 08-31-2010 4:42 PM dennis780 has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 549 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

 Message 75 of 111 (578002) 08-31-2010 12:49 PM Reply to: Message 74 by dennis78008-31-2010 6:46 AM

"Thermo" means heat
dennis780 writes:
quote:
Entropy is a macroscopic property of a system that is a measure of the microscopic disorder within the system. It is an important part of the second law of thermodynamics. Thermodynamic systems are made up of microscopic objects, e.g. atoms or molecules, which "carry" energy. According to the second law of thermodynamics, the thermodynamic entropy is a measure of the amount of energy which does no work during energy conversions.
Entropy - Wikipedia
"Again, entropy is not the same as order and disorder. The creo sites are lying to you."
So is wikipedia?
"It is not what you claim or want it to be, no matter how many times you claim."
Wikipedia seems to disagree with you.
No. I think you're just misunderstanding Wikipedia.
The article mentions that atoms and molecules "carry" energy. The "microscopic disorder" that it mentions is not disorder of the atoms and molecules themselves. It's disorder of the energy that they carry. The more "spread out" the energy is, the less work it can do.
Consider a cup of coffee sitting on a table. As it cools, you can feel the energy leaving the coffee, heating the cup, heating the air, heating the tabletop. The heat is spreading out, becoming increasingly disordered but there's little change in the disorder of the coffee.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

 This message is a reply to: Message 74 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 6:46 AM dennis780 has replied

 Replies to this message: Message 79 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 2:42 AM ringo has replied

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