Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,422 Year: 3,679/9,624 Month: 550/974 Week: 163/276 Day: 3/34 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Obama supports Ground Zero mosque. Religious freedom or is he being too PC?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 1 of 406 (574203)
08-14-2010 4:17 PM


This should be an interesting thread, I think.
I've even heard my liberal friends saying we shouldn't allow it because the families of the 9/11 victims don't want it.
The story:
Controversy swells as Obama supports Ground Zero mosque
quote:
US President Barack Obama's endorsement of a controversial plan to build a mosque just blocks from Ground Zero poured fuel Saturday on a raging debate over religious freedom and sensitivities over the 9/11 attacks.
Obama's main point is this:
quote:
"This is America," Obama said, "and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are."
But critics have offered this in rebuttle:
quote:
Obama "has abandoned America at the place where America's heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see," the group said.
"Now this president declares that the victims of 9/11 and their families must bear another burden. We must stand silent at the last place in America where 9/11 is still remembered with reverence or risk being called religious bigots."
Building the mosque "is a deliberately provocative act that will precipitate more bloodshed in the name of Allah," the group claimed.
Personally, I could care less if a mosque was built on ground zero. I don't think ground zero is anything more that a piece of property where something bad happened once. This personal attatchment to this piece of land as some kind of representation of freedom and America, to me, seems rather pointless.
It's terrible what happened to those buildings, and worse what happened to the people in them. But that's it really. Why the constant reminder of what happend that day and the treatment of this property as holy ground?
Do we run the risk of turning ground zero into a quasi-Jerusalem? Seems like not allowing the mosque gives priority to the rights of Christians and Jews before the rights of the common citizen, be them from any religious or secular background.
Thoughts?
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-15-2010 6:01 AM onifre has not replied
 Message 4 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-15-2010 8:14 AM onifre has not replied
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 08-15-2010 8:20 AM onifre has not replied
 Message 12 by Dogmafood, posted 08-15-2010 9:21 AM onifre has not replied
 Message 71 by riVeRraT, posted 08-19-2010 8:42 AM onifre has not replied
 Message 74 by ooh-child, posted 08-19-2010 3:27 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 76 by Nij, posted 08-20-2010 8:49 AM onifre has not replied
 Message 101 by evolutionfacts, posted 08-22-2010 7:50 PM onifre has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 80 of 406 (576011)
08-22-2010 1:28 PM


A friend of mine made a good point. While yes, there is freedom of religion and the mosque can't be stopped from being built, people are sensitive about it.
Now, asking Muslims to acknowledge this is the same as when they ask us (normal people) to be sensitive to their beliefs, such as, not showing an image of their prophet on TV.
So I think they should build the mosque, but it would be awesome if across the street from the mosque someone built a giant poster of their prophet.
Question is, would they accept someone doing that?
- Oni

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 1:32 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 82 of 406 (576013)
08-22-2010 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
08-22-2010 1:32 PM


The sign seems to be solely to aggravate them.
My point is that freedom is freedom, religious and speech.
If they want religious freedom, then they can't get mad when someone is exercising freedom of speech. No one cares that they're offended, just as they don't care if the mosque offends others. Freedom is freedom.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 1:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 1:42 PM onifre has replied
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-22-2010 2:13 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 84 of 406 (576016)
08-22-2010 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
08-22-2010 1:42 PM


Certainly freedom is freedom, and in the US someone would have the right to put up such a poster. I'd still consider that person to be an asshole though.
But that's the question: do you think someone would be allowed to do it? They've censored every image on American TV, a highly doubt a poster would be allowed. Someone would point to the fact that it's offensive, but, when someone considers the mosque offensive the Constitution is thrown at them.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 1:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 2:01 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 86 of 406 (576023)
08-22-2010 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
08-22-2010 2:01 PM


Should be allowed is one thing, but would they be allowed is my question. We've seen it censored on TV, what would suggest they'd allow a poster of it especially in front of a mosque.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 2:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 2:20 PM onifre has replied
 Message 100 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2010 7:38 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 88 of 406 (576026)
08-22-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
08-22-2010 2:13 PM


You should be free to call your grandmother a fat, ugly old whore, but you should choose not to do it.
Why doesn't that apply equally for the people wanting to build the mosque? Shouldn't they choose not to do it?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 08-22-2010 2:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 08-22-2010 2:27 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 91 of 406 (576032)
08-22-2010 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
08-22-2010 2:20 PM


If they can find a company willing to rent space to assholes than where is the problem?
Of course, companies don't have to rent space to assholes.
I don't see how this addresses my point. The prophet has been censored on TV because it is offensive to muslims to show his image, however on the same show (South Park) they showed, I think, George Bush taking a shit on Jesus.
In this situation, the mosque is considered offensive by MANY people. Rightfully so, they are still allowed to build their mosque.
Freedom of religion protects them. But freedom of speech is ignored when the image of the prophet is concerned.
It seems hypocritical. Why should we give a shit about how muslims feel when it comes to their prophet's image, but then they don't give a shit when it comes to the feelings of those who find the mosque offensive?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 2:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 2:31 PM onifre has replied
 Message 94 by Huntard, posted 08-22-2010 2:37 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 92 of 406 (576036)
08-22-2010 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by ringo
08-22-2010 2:27 PM


I agree, but shouldn't the Constitution protect us both?
There are some who find the mosque offensive. There are some who find the image of the prophet offensive. But it seems like in the US the muslims and their feels are considered before the feelings of others for fear of, well, another ground zero somewhere else.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 08-22-2010 2:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 08-22-2010 3:20 PM onifre has seen this message but not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 96 of 406 (576076)
08-22-2010 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
08-22-2010 2:31 PM


It is no the government that stops tv from broadcasting images of the Prophet, it is corporate timidity.
Agreed. But since it was American's insulting Muslims, Obama didn't speak up about it. He didn't make it a government issue, like he has in the case of the mosque.
If there is any hypocrisy it is not because there is any governmental restriction on freedom of speech.
Right, but I just meant the way we favor one side's feelings over the other. There are people who sincerely feel the mosque is insulting, but we disregard those feelings in support of freedom of religion.
I think Huntard is right in that we're just scared.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 2:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 6:18 PM onifre has replied
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-22-2010 6:57 PM onifre has seen this message but not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 97 of 406 (576077)
08-22-2010 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Huntard
08-22-2010 2:37 PM


Also, it's not because it is offensive that they don't show it, it's because they're pussies who are afraid fucktards will do something to them if they do show it.
Because those fucktards are offended. But yes, I agree 1000%. It's because we've become pussies.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Huntard, posted 08-22-2010 2:37 PM Huntard has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 103 of 406 (576111)
08-22-2010 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by jar
08-22-2010 6:18 PM


But no one has stopped the folk that are offended from speaking out.
Where is the issue?
The Muslims have a Constitutional Right to build the mosque.
Folk have a Constitutional Right to speak out against it.
Both rights seem to be supported and working just fine.
I wasn't arguing that, I was just pointing out the insensitivity from the Muslims building it.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 6:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 8:59 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 105 of 406 (576114)
08-22-2010 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Rrhain
08-22-2010 7:38 PM


No, you haven't seen in censored. Not in any way, shape, or form. Censorship is governmental restriction of speech.
Censorship is not restricted to just the government, many news, radio and TV stations censor material that they don't want aired.
Do not confuse corporate spinelessness with censorship.
But the corporate spinelessness resulted in Trey and Matt being censored by Comedy Central. Granted, it wasn't the government doing it, but I think that would still be considered censorship.
At least that's what the news called it.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2010 7:38 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Rrhain, posted 08-23-2010 4:08 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 106 of 406 (576115)
08-22-2010 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by jar
08-22-2010 8:59 PM


What insensitivity?
They are not sensitive to those who feel it's offensive.
I agree that they shouldn't feel offended, but then again, I also feel Muslims shouldn't be offended by us airing and image of their prophet.
Honestly, all I have seen so far from those protesting the construction is utter ignorance of the facts.
Agreed.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 8:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 9:07 PM onifre has replied
 Message 114 by crashfrog, posted 08-22-2010 9:20 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 109 of 406 (576120)
08-22-2010 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
08-22-2010 9:07 PM


I see no indication that those building the place are insensitive. I don't see them saying that the folks that are upset should not speak out or that they don't understand that folk are upset.
But that fact that they are building regardless of how others feel is them being insensitive.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 9:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 08-22-2010 9:15 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 110 of 406 (576121)
08-22-2010 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Coyote
08-22-2010 9:10 PM


Perhaps not insensitive, just arrogant.
Ok, arrogant works too.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Coyote, posted 08-22-2010 9:10 PM Coyote has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024