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Author Topic:   Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 76 of 295 (576274)
08-23-2010 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Joseppi
08-23-2010 2:33 PM


Re: Chronology
Joseppi writes:
YOU CAN NOT ESTABLISH ANY CHRONOLOGY THROUGHOUT CHAPTER TWO.
Of course you can. If there's no clear indication otherwise, the narration is assumed to be in chronological order. That's the way it's always done. It is the rule whether you like it or not.
When you read Treasure Island, you assume that they went to the island after Jim found the map. There's no need for the text to say "and then" something else happened. Sensible people follow the narrative if there are no other signs.
Joseppi writes:
I didn't shoehorn anything.
You're assuming that the two accounts "must" coincide, aren't you? You're looking for ways to reconcile the two accounts, aren't you?

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 2:33 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 3:52 PM ringo has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 295 (576281)
08-23-2010 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Joseppi
08-23-2010 2:27 PM


Re: Chronology
But, the first verse of Genesis says...In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Therefore, only God can be the narrator.
Nonsense.
If I write "in the Opening Post Hepteract said..." it is not Hepteract narrating.
The narrator is the one recounting the fable.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 2:27 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 3:59 PM jar has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 78 of 295 (576291)
08-23-2010 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
08-23-2010 2:47 PM


Re: Chronology
Assumption of chronology in chapter one was never assumed by any rational person. It is defined by the terms used not by the whim of the reader.
When one reads the second chapter one easily notes that there is no assigned chronology. Instead, the subject of the generations is presented and the things important to understanding how and why are provided.
Once again I note that you provide no evidence of any correctness to your assumption.
And, the notion that assumptions are to be assumed is, of course, ludicrous. So, you and your assumed rule is for your buds alone. Me, I assume nothing.
Your Treasure Island contrast is an example of what I already informed you of...in case some didn't know..which is as it appeared from my reading of this thread...that is, that there is a contextual context forced by the context.
Your notion that the whole chapter has such a contextual force is not evident in the chapter at all. Which is why you don't present them, I suppose.
I don't assume anything.
The context of the narrative changed and the narrator told you what the new subject was. Disregarding what the text told you about the change in subject is what causes such simplistic errors in comprehension.
I am not looking for any reconciliationa at all. I am pointing out that the notion of a need for reconciliation is merely a not very well disguised red herring. The whole argument is bogus.
As with lawyers, when biased folks don't like what the truth is they start inventing things and hoping no one notices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 08-23-2010 2:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 08-23-2010 6:23 PM Joseppi has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 79 of 295 (576293)
08-23-2010 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
08-23-2010 3:17 PM


Re: Chronology
Jar,
What you call nonsense is what you can't refute and so you assume an air of some kind of...superiority? I'm not impressed.
I view you as incapable of dealing with the task at hand and therefore, in being surrounded by your friends who have apparently allowed you to think you're something special your reasoning powers have devolved into pontification of your assumptions.
So, with the supposition that none of you have any actual logic or evidence to support your notions, but only some measure of vitriol, I will return tomorro to see if anyone has responded rationally.
And by rational I don't mean off topic opinions by certified opinionators.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 08-23-2010 3:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 08-23-2010 4:28 PM Joseppi has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 295 (576302)
08-23-2010 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Joseppi
08-23-2010 3:59 PM


what is a narrator
I beg your pardon?
Here is the content you are replying to.
jar writes:
Joseppi writes:
But, the first verse of Genesis says...In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Therefore, only God can be the narrator.
Nonsense.
If I write "in the Opening Post Hepteract said..." it is not Hepteract narrating.
The narrator is the one recounting the fable.
The narrator of something is the person telling the story. Genesis 1 was not written in the first person. God is not the narrator. It does not say "In the beginning I created the heaven and the earth..."
Here is Genesis 1.
quote:
Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Note that it is not written as though God were the narrator.
This really is basic reading comprehension stuff.
God is NOT the narrator.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 3:59 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 6:45 AM jar has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 295 (576336)
08-23-2010 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Joseppi
08-23-2010 3:52 PM


Re: Chronology
Joseppi writes:
Assumption of chronology in chapter one was never assumed by any rational person. It is defined by the terms used not by the whim of the reader.
Exactly. In chapter one, the chronology is laid out by the numbers.
But in chapter two, there is no assigned chronology. Everybody has to make assumptions about the chronology. I'm saying that the most reasonable first assumption is that the events happened in the order that they were narrated.
Joseppi writes:
I don't assume anything.
You assume that I disagree with you.
If you read the thread, I think you'll find that I haven't taken a position. I'm telling you that your approach is wrong. I don't particularly care about your conclusion.
In fact, I tend to agree with you that chronology is a poor argument for a contradiction between chapter one and chapter two. I think you've accidentally arrived at the right conclusion by the wrong reasoning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 3:52 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 6:49 AM ringo has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 82 of 295 (576338)
08-23-2010 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by hERICtic
07-25-2010 10:08 AM


Re: Still Inconsistent
Hi ERIC,
Sorry about that first quote.
hERICtic writes:
I'm sorry, I'm just not following you. Every day has a morning and evening. Every day has a light period and a dark one. Its a perfect description of a typical day. I asked all those questions which you didnt respond to, but every time an evening and morning are used in scripture, it refers to a 24 hour day. Every time "yom" is used with a number, it also refers to a 24 hour day. To suggest the author is not refering to a 24 hour day is twisting and/or ignoring what Genesis states.
According to God every day has a light period and a dark period.
According to your interpertation the first day which started with the evening in Genesis 1:2 and ended with the morning of the light period of day 2 would only contain 12 hours.
But God declared the light period (DAY) in which God created the Heaven and the Earth combined with the dark period that ended with the light period of day two as day one.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
The Heaven and the Earth existed at Genesis 1:2 as the land mass was covered with water.
Genesis 2:4 says the Heaven and the Earth was created in the day that the LORD God made the Earth and the Heavens.
So the Heaven and the Earth had to be created in the light period that ended with evening found in Genesis 1:2.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
From Gods declaration of day one in Genesis 1:5 all days were made of a light period that ended with evening and a dark period that ended with the light period of the following day which lasted almost 24 hours.
hERICtic writes:
What exactly is your stance? Is it a 6-24 hour day creation or not?
The first day in Genesis 1:5 that starts with evening and ends with morning was only 12 hours unless you add the light period that Genesis 1:1 took place in.
All other days from then until now has been almost 24 hours.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by hERICtic, posted 07-25-2010 10:08 AM hERICtic has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 7:22 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 83 of 295 (576343)
08-23-2010 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by purpledawn
07-25-2010 11:09 AM


Re: Evidence Needed
Hi PD,
Purple Dawn writes:
Show evidence that the 7th day hasn't ended for God.
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
The Hebrew word kalah which means,
1) to accomplish, cease, consume, determine, end, fail, finish, be complete, be accomplished, be ended, be at an end, be finished, be spent.
I can find no verse in the Bible that states God has resumed His creation work. Therefore He is still resting from His work.
Purple Dawn writes:
Show evidence that there has always been light where God "is."
John writes:
1John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
John writes:
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
These texts declare God is light.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by purpledawn, posted 07-25-2010 11:09 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 08-23-2010 9:01 PM ICANT has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 84 of 295 (576360)
08-23-2010 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ICANT
08-23-2010 6:42 PM


Re: Evidence Needed
ICANT writes:
Message 62 On day seven God ceases His creation work and is still ceased from His creation work so for God that day has not ended yet. Our system of keeping time has no effect on God as there has always been light where He is. Just on great big eternal light period with a little space marked off with time in it for us humans.
quote:
I can find no verse in the Bible that states God has resumed His creation work. Therefore He is still resting from His work.
You're assuming that he wishes to continue creating. The story has already made it clear the length of time a day takes. The story doesn't tell us that the 7th day is any longer. The story isn't about what God does after the 7th day, the story is about the first seven. There is no information in the story to support your contention that the seventh day has not ended yet.
quote:
These texts declare God is light.
Light represents what is good and true, while darkness represents what is evil and false. See John 3:19-21. The verse isn't speaking of the common meaning of the word light.
The verse in revelation is a vision. Notice it says the glory of God will lighten it, not God. Glory does not provide luminescence.
What you've shown is creative writing, not the common meaning of light.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ICANT, posted 08-23-2010 6:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2010 8:09 PM purpledawn has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 85 of 295 (576440)
08-24-2010 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
08-23-2010 4:28 PM


Re: what is a narrator
Jar,
Narrator was a bad choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 08-23-2010 4:28 PM jar has not replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 86 of 295 (576444)
08-24-2010 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
08-23-2010 6:23 PM


Re: Chronology
Ringo,
When I read chapter I find some chronology.
But, in many parts I find that only information is added so as to enhance the understanding of why God did as he did.
I can see why you think I assumed to disagree with you. However, I would put that I misunderstood your meaning.
It appeared to me that you were simply saying that chapter two must be assumed to be chronological.
What I don't think is right is, to not let the text speak for itself and/or to apply any bias to it.
Sorry, if I misunderstood your point.
Edited by Joseppi, : Better wording. I hope.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 08-23-2010 6:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 08-24-2010 11:27 AM Joseppi has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 87 of 295 (576453)
08-24-2010 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
08-23-2010 6:26 PM


Re: Still Inconsistent
ICANT,
You quoted this...Genesis 2:4 says the Heaven and the Earth was created in the day that the LORD God made the Earth and the Heavens.
And said....
quote:
So the Heaven and the Earth had to be created in the light period that ended with evening found in Genesis 1:2.
In my understanding the phrase "in the day" refers to the whole time period thus far presented.
One evidence of this is that verse one says God created the heaven and the earth. And in that verse heaven is singular.
And in verse eight the firmament is named Heaven. So at that point the there arises the plurality of heavens. I consider that Heaven to be the atmosphere of the earth.
Whereas, in verse fourteen of chapter one it says that...
Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, for days, and for years....
So, this other lower case heaven in verse fourteen is the next heaven beyond the atmosphere.
Again there is now a plurality of heavens brought about by the creation of firmament.
You proposed that Genesis 1-2 is part of one of the days of creation.
My understanding is that Genesis 1-2 is of unknown length in which no marking of time is denoted.
And that in the process of time God's Spirit moved on the face of the waters.
And after that time God turned on the light in the deep where the earth was under many waters not yet divided by firmament, and thus a part of the original heaven noted in verse one.
That the turning on of the light was the beginning of the first day.
I consider the days of creation week to be 24 hour periods since, they are limited by use of the common man's understanding of an "evening and a morning".
But, that this measure of time was not manifested till there were the firmament lights with which to do so.
I see no problem with God using the measure of a common twenty four hour day before there were lights available, because as with any designer the goal is in mind long before the design is seen by all.
I consider Heaven in verse eight to be capitalized to indicate that this earth is the ordained place where God is to dwell.
The capitalization denoting ownership.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.
Edited by Joseppi, : Clarity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 08-23-2010 6:26 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Coragyps, posted 08-24-2010 8:01 AM Joseppi has replied
 Message 96 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2010 9:11 PM Joseppi has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 88 of 295 (576467)
08-24-2010 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Joseppi
08-24-2010 7:22 AM


Re: Still Inconsistent
I consider Heaven in verse eight to be capitalized to indicate that this earth is the ordained place where God is to dwell.
The capitalization denoting ownership.
Ancient Hebrew didn't have capital letters. Well, or capitals were all they had....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 7:22 AM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 1:51 PM Coragyps has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 295 (576520)
08-24-2010 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Joseppi
08-24-2010 6:49 AM


Re: Chronology
Joseppi writes:
It appeared to me that you were simply saying that chapter two must be assumed to be chronological.
What I don't think is right is, to not let the text speak for itself and/or to apply any bias to it.
That's what I'm saying. You're not letting the text speak for itself. There is an implied chronology in chapter two that you're just handwaving away.
You seem to be thinking that you can just use the chronology from chapter one. I'm saying that you should respect the text and accept the implied chronology in the narrative.
The question isn't whether or not the two chronologies disagree. It's why they disagree.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 6:49 AM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 2:29 PM ringo has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 90 of 295 (576555)
08-24-2010 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Coragyps
08-24-2010 8:01 AM


Re: Still Inconsistent
Coragyps,
Then they had another means I would suspect.
Regardless, I don't read Hebrew and am not retranslating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Coragyps, posted 08-24-2010 8:01 AM Coragyps has not replied

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