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Author Topic:   Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2
Joseppi
Member (Idle past 3198 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 91 of 295 (576563)
08-24-2010 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
08-24-2010 11:27 AM


Re: Chronology
Ringo,

I stated from the outset of my remarks that there is a chronological context forced in chapter two.
But, you are claiming the whole thing is.
So I suppose I need to give examples.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would name them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Now we know from the chapter one chronological order that the beasts were formed before Adam. But, in chapter two there is no chronological order stated. And the reason seems to be that Genesis 2:19 only mentions the forming of every beast of the field at that moment for the expressed purpose of highlighting Adam's consideration of each one. And that this information is needed only to teach that Adam became aware of the fact that God had not yet made him a help meet for him as all other living creatures had.

Genesis 2:21-22 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; and the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Note the first use of anesthetics and cloning.
Note that the genetics of man agrees that woman came from out of man.
Now, one might think that the woman was formed on day six. But, that would only be because one assumes that the forming of the woman is the moment of her creation. And the whole of the events wherein Adam names every beast of the field and recognizes his need can not be supposed to occur within any twenty four hour time frame of days having each one, "a evening and a morning".
But, when one realizes these events are not bound in chronological order but in the order required to teach. Then we can discern the deeper purpose.
For...
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, in the image of God created he them.

And thus we see that the woman was created at the same moment God created man but not yet given a bodily form.
But, God formed the woman 's body after Adam was well involved with Edenic matters.
So, creating is not forming.
In the same way that creating of all the plants was not the generating of them as chapter two, verse five informs us of.
This shows that the discussion in chapter two concerns informing us of the necessary facts and such so as to learn what God's intents were and why man responded as he did. Therefore, chronology is not stressed throughout the chapter.

Edited by Joseppi, : Clarity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 08-24-2010 11:27 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 08-24-2010 2:39 PM Joseppi has responded
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 08-24-2010 2:51 PM Joseppi has responded
 Message 94 by Coragyps, posted 08-24-2010 3:29 PM Joseppi has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31262
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 92 of 295 (576566)
08-24-2010 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Joseppi
08-24-2010 2:29 PM


Re: Chronology
Sure there is chronology in both. It is just that the two stories are mutually exclusive, they contradict each other.

They are two different stories written by two different cultures living in two different eras. They are NOT one story. In fact the evidence suggests that Genesis 2&3 is by far the older story, written hundreds if not thousands of years before Genesis 1.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 2:29 PM Joseppi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Joseppi, posted 08-30-2010 7:19 AM jar has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17281
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 93 of 295 (576569)
08-24-2010 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Joseppi
08-24-2010 2:29 PM


Re: Chronology
Joseppi writes:

Now we know from the chapter one chronological order that the beasts were formed before Adam.


That's where you're going wrong. You're assuming that the chapter one chronology is The True Chronology™. In fact, it's just the chronology for chapter one. You're altering what chapter two says to fit your assumption about chapter one.

Joseppi writes:

So, creating is not forming.


I think the Hebrew scholars would disagree. There are threads somewhere about "created, formed and made" if you care to search for them. As I recall, the words are pretty much interchangeable.

Joseppi writes:

And thus we see that the woman was created at the same moment God created man but not yet given a bodily form.


That's a perfect example of the nonsensical conclusions you get when you try to harmonize the two accounts.

Science tells us that neither chronology is correct, so harmonizing them is a bit of a silly exercise anyway.

What you should be thinking is that both chapters are included in most canons, so the compilers of those canons must not have been concerned about the discrepancies. You should be asking yourself why instead of making up your own reconcilliations.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 2:29 PM Joseppi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2010 9:51 PM ringo has responded
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5398
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 94 of 295 (576574)
08-24-2010 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Joseppi
08-24-2010 2:29 PM


Re: Chronology
Note that the genetics of man agrees that woman came from out of man.

And here for the last 62.7 years I've been carrying around these pitiful little Y chromosomes which look like a faint shadow of the X chromosomes that came first. "Man" was derived from "woman" here in the clade Mammalia.

Genesis flunks Biology 101 yet again.

And thus we see that the woman was created at the same moment God created man but not yet given a bodily form.

Not if you read the text you just quoted. Wouldn't it be the "plain reading" that Adam had to be awake to be put into a "deep sleep?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 2:29 PM Joseppi has responded

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 95 of 295 (576625)
08-24-2010 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by purpledawn
08-23-2010 9:01 PM


Re: Evidence Needed
Hi PD,

purpledawn writes:

You're assuming that he wishes to continue creating.

No assumptions necessary.

John tells us God is going to create a new Heaven and Earth in the future. Revelations 21:1

purpledawn writes:

There is no information in the story to support your contention that the seventh day has not ended yet.

I never said the seventh day has not ended yet.

I have said Gods seventh day of rest has not ended yet.

God does not reside insided the universe. He is not a creature of time and space. God has only had eternity He does not have days. He invented days for humans that is why He declared what a day was.

First He declared it was a period of light.

Then He added a dark period to the light period and called that day also.

God did not give us how many hours there was in a day.

God did declare that the light period that ended in the evening found in Genesis 1:2 coupled with the dark period that ended with the light period of day two as the first day.

That is God's definition not mine.

Every close of a light period with evening (begining of a dark period) and the close of that dark period with the light of the following morning has been a day.

In early history there was 12 hours in the light period and 12 hours in the dark period with hours of different lengths due to the time of the year.

purpledawn writes:

Light represents what is good and true, while darkness represents what is evil and false. See John 3:19-21. The verse isn't speaking of the common meaning of the word light.

I don't get that statement from reading John 3:19, 20.

3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Light is come into the world. Nothing about what is good and true or evil and false.

Men loved darkness rather than light. Nothing about what is good and true or evil and false.

Because their deeds were evil. Nothing about what is good and true or evil and false. There was something about what was evil and it was mans deeds.

Every one that doeth evil hateth the light. Nothing about what is good and true or evil and false.

Crooks don't like the light as well as they do the darkness.

The good guys don't mind the light They have nothing to hide.

purpledawn writes:

The verse in revelation is a vision. Notice it says the glory of God will lighten it, not God. Glory does not provide luminescence.

You did notice that the sun and moon was not necessary didn't you.

Is the verse in 1 John a vision also?

You skipped right over it.

John writes:

1John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

This is a declarative statement "God is light".

purpledawn writes:

What you've shown is creative writing, not the common meaning of light.

I didn't create anything. I just copied what was written.

On the other hand you did some creative translation.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 08-23-2010 9:01 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 96 of 295 (576632)
08-24-2010 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Joseppi
08-24-2010 7:22 AM


Re: Still Inconsistent
Hi Joseppi,

Welcome to EvC.

Joseppi writes:

In my understanding the phrase "in the day" refers to the whole time period thus far presented.
One evidence of this is that verse one says God created the heaven and the earth. And in that verse heaven is singular.

According to the text "in the day" refers to the day the Lord God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

At the end of this light period there was two heavens.

The one where God resides. And the one our galaxy resides in.

In Genesis 1:7 our atmosphere was formed.

Now we have 3 heavens according to Paul. 2 Corinthians 12:2

Joseppi writes:

My understanding is that Genesis 1-2 is of unknown length in which no marking of time is denoted.

My understanding is that Genesis is an undetrmined period of light that ended with the darkness in Genesis 1:2.

The darkness in Genesis 1:2 ended with the morning of the light period that was the beginning of day two in Genesis 1:5.

Joseppi writes:

I consider the days of creation week to be 24 hour periods since, they are limited by use of the common man's understanding of an "evening and a morning".

How can you get 24 hours between the evening in Genesis 1:2 and the morning in Genesis 1:5.

According to my caculations that is 12 hours at best unless you are in the vicinity of the North Pole.

Before you can have an evening you have to have a period of light.

But yes from day two until now a day has been a light period and a dark period of almost 24 hours.

Joseppi writes:

I consider Heaven in verse eight to be capitalized to indicate that this earth is the ordained place where God is to dwell.

God dwelled somewhere before He created the Heaven and the Earth.

God came and dwelled on earth in the human form we call Jesus.

God sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in born again children of His.

Now where is any reference to God dwelling in our atmosphere?

As has been pointed out the Hebrew that Moses used when he wrote Genesis did not have capital letters.

In Message 90 You stated:

Joseppi writes:

Regardless, I don't read Hebrew and am not retranslating.

You were just making an assertion of what you believe as you did in several places in the post I am responding to.

I do read and write Biblical Hebrew and Greek.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 7:22 AM Joseppi has responded

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 97 of 295 (576633)
08-24-2010 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Coragyps
08-24-2010 3:29 PM


Re: Chronology
Hi Coragyps,

Coragyps writes:

Genesis flunks Biology 101 yet again.

The mankind created male and female in Genesis 1:27 in the image/likeness of God was not created out of the other. In fact there is no number of mankind created in the image/likeness of God.

So no Genesis does not flunk Biology 101.

The misunderstanding of what Genesis says is the problem.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Coragyps, posted 08-24-2010 3:29 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31262
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 98 of 295 (576637)
08-24-2010 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ICANT
08-24-2010 9:11 PM


Re: Still Inconsistent
Nothing in Genesis 2 refers to Genesis 1.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2010 9:11 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 99 of 295 (576642)
08-24-2010 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
08-24-2010 2:51 PM


Re: Chronology
Hi Ringo,

Ringo writes:

I think the Hebrew scholars would disagree. There are threads somewhere about "created, formed and made" if you care to search for them. As I recall, the words are pretty much interchangeable.

The Hebrew word bara' primary meaning is create, shape, form and is used when an entity did not exist.
This word is used in Genesis 1:1, 1:21, 1:27, Things that had not existed began to exist. In Genesis 2:3, 2:4, 5:1, 5:2, 6:7, all refer to one of the three events in the first three verses given.

If I remember correctly the only other things created were covenants God made with mankind. David did ask God to create in him a clean heart where mind would have been a better translation.

The Hebrew word `asah primary meaning is to do, fashion, accomplish, make, and is used to take existing material and form or fashion an entity. As the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7.

Two different words for different functions.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 08-24-2010 2:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1712 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 100 of 295 (576703)
08-25-2010 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by ICANT
08-24-2010 8:09 PM


Light and Darkness Metaphors
Remember, this is the science forum.

quote:
No assumptions necessary.

John tells us God is going to create a new Heaven and Earth in the future. Revelations 21:1


That isn't evidence that God is still resting or that his seventh day is longer than ours. I don't consider floods, plagues, parting a sea, delivering manna, and carving out commandments etc. to be rest. It is a lot of work taking care of kids. Either God is on duty watching over us or he isn't.

quote:
I never said the seventh day has not ended yet.

I have said Gods seventh day of rest has not ended yet.


The stories don't tell us God's time is different than ours. Even the mentions in later writings of a day is like a thousand years doesn't tell us that God's time is different than ours. They are metaphors.

Even if you want to view those metaphors as fact, it ha been more than a thousand years since the creation story.

quote:
God does not reside insided the universe. He is not a creature of time and space. God has only had eternity He does not have days. He invented days for humans that is why He declared what a day was.
Evidence please. The stories don't tell us this. You're creating the information you need.

quote:
Crooks don't like the light as well as they do the darkness.

The good guys don't mind the light They have nothing to hide.


Exactly! That's why light is associated with right or what is true and darkness with wrong or what is false.

The verse isn't talking about luminescence. Luminescence already existed. The writer isn't saying that more luminescence has come into the world.

Criminals fear the truth, not the luminescence.

quote:
You did notice that the sun and moon was not necessary didn't you.
Revelation is a vision. A plain reading isn't necessarily what the verse is saying. The meaning of the vision has to be addressed.

quote:
Is the verse in 1 John a vision also?
Different writing. The use of light in 1 John is a metaphor, which I explained.

quote:
I didn't create anything. I just copied what was written.
I didn't say you created anything (although you do add considerably to the Genesis accounts). The verses you presented were examples of creative writing. (Visions, metaphors)

quote:
On the other hand you did some creative translation.
Study Bible and Christian commentaries. Not my own imagination. They aren't talking about luminescence. If you disagree, show evidence that the writers were talking about luminescence and that what they wrote has anything to do with the luminescence where God lives.

You haven't shown evidence to support your statements in Message 62. This is your creative writing.

ICANT writes:

On day seven God ceases His creation work and is still ceased from His creation work so for God that day has not ended yet. Our system of keeping time has no effect on God as there has always been light where He is. Just on great big eternal light period with a little space marked off with time in it for us humans.

Ceasing from creation work doesn't tell us that God's day of rest hasn't ended. Not creating more doesn't tell us that God's day of rest hasn't ended. You're filling in the unknown. Show the evidence please.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2010 8:09 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ICANT, posted 08-25-2010 3:33 PM purpledawn has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17281
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 101 of 295 (576747)
08-25-2010 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ICANT
08-24-2010 9:51 PM


Re: Chronology
ICANT writes:

Two different words for different functions.


Even the people at Answers in Genesis don't swallow that one.

Their article says that:

quote:
making a strong distinction between bara and asah in Genesis 1–2 is as unjustified as making a distinction between “create” and “make” in English.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2010 9:51 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 102 of 295 (576756)
08-25-2010 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
08-25-2010 12:49 PM


Re: Chronology
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

Even the people at Answers in Genesis don't swallow that one.

Since they believe in a young earth the two words must mean the same thing to them.

But the Lexicons and science disagree with them.

The earth and universe is not young, it is very, very old.

Therefore the creation in Genesis 1:1 could not have took place 6,000+ years ago.

If you want to take their article and put forth an argument for the two words being the same and interchangable then I will refute your position. I will not waste my time refuting AIG.

Concerning your quote I will make an observation:

quote:
making a strong distinction between bara and asah in Genesis 1–2 is as unjustified as making a distinction between “create” and “make” in English.

Mankind has never created anything. We can not take an absence of existence and cause something to begin to exist.

All we can do is rearrange existing materials.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 08-25-2010 12:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31262
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 103 of 295 (576757)
08-25-2010 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ICANT
08-25-2010 1:45 PM


Re: Chronology
Therefore the creation in Genesis 1:1 could not have took place 6,000+ years ago.

The creation in Genesis 2 didn't happen 6,000+ years ago either.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ICANT, posted 08-25-2010 1:45 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17281
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 104 of 295 (576761)
08-25-2010 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ICANT
08-25-2010 1:45 PM


Re: Chronology
ICANT writes:

If you want to take their article and put forth an argument for the two words being the same and interchangable then I will refute your position. I will not waste my time refuting AIG.


I don't want to waste time talking to you about Genesis at all. I just wanted to point out that even Answers in Genesis know more about Hebrew than you do.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ICANT, posted 08-25-2010 1:45 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2010 10:02 AM ringo has responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 105 of 295 (576779)
08-25-2010 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by purpledawn
08-25-2010 7:48 AM


Re: Light and Darkness Metaphors
Hi PD,

purpledawn writes:

That isn't evidence that God is still resting or that his seventh day is longer than ours. I don't consider floods, plagues, parting a sea, delivering manna, and carving out commandments etc. to be rest. It is a lot of work taking care of kids. Either God is on duty watching over us or he isn't.

What was created that did not exist in a flood?

What was created in a plague that did not exist prior to the plague?

What was created in the parting of a sea?

What was created in delivering manna (food of angels).

What was created in the carving out of commandments?

What is created in taking care of God's children as He watches over us?

Created = כרא bara' create where no material is used.

The only places I can find that this took place is in:

Genesis 1:1, the Heaven and the Earth.
Genesis 1:21 God created great whales.
Genesis 1:27 God created mankind male and female in His image/likeness.
In Isaiah 45:7 Isaiah quotes God is as saying He created darkness and evil.
Isaiah fortold that God would create new heavens and a new earth in Isa 65:17 as well as a new Jerusalem in 65:18.

Now if you can present a text that says something began to exist or will begin to exist where it did not exist we can discuss it.

purpledawn writes:

Ceasing from creation work doesn't tell us that God's day of rest hasn't ended. Not creating more doesn't tell us that God's day of rest hasn't ended. You're filling in the unknown. Show the evidence please.

What did God rest from in Genesis 2:3?

2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

In Genesis 1:2-27 God rearranged a lot of things in the universe and on the earth.

The only place anything is said to be bara' created is Genesis 1:21, and 1:27, everything else was just a rearranging of things existing or called forth from things that had existed after their kind or seed that was in the ground.

Thus the Hebrew word עשה made, is used in other events that took place in Genesis 1:2-27.

So lets examine Genesis 2:3

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it.

Because He rested from all his work.

What kind of work did God rest from?

Work which God created and made which was declared finished in Genesis 2:1.

So he was resting from His כרא bara' creating that He had produced.

I can find no record of a thing God caused to begin to exist that did not exist from then until now recorded in the Bible.

If you can find one please share.

If none can be found God is still resting from His כרא bara' creating.

I hope that clarifies what I said of God's day of rest and what He is resting from having not ended yet.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by purpledawn, posted 08-25-2010 7:48 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
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