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Author Topic:   Is religion good for us?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 12 of 181 (576570)
08-24-2010 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dogmafood
08-23-2010 10:23 PM


Part of the Problem
Simply put; Is organized religion in the world today a greater force for good or evil? (there may be problems with good/evil perhaps someone can suggest better words)
Simply put? Evil.
(But it's really rather naive to reduce such an "immense and awesome presence in the world today" to anything resembling "simple")
It is my assertion that organized religion is doing more harm to man than good. I may concede that it has been beneficial in the past and may even have been pivotal in our assent from darkness but in the world today, it is a cancerous blight.
...
All this against what? A warm and fuzzy feeling for the intellectually lazy?
Essentially? Yes.
But, as Larni has described, this warm and fuzzy feeling is rather important... sometimes even a requirement for humans to work together in a functional society.
The fact that some (many?) humans have used this knowledge to abuse and control and destroy the lives of others does not negate it's importance to us.
So, the issue isn't identifying religion as a problem and getting rid of it.
That won't solve anything.
The issue is working out the good parts of religion, taking them out, and dumping the rest of the useless baggage that can be used to abuse and even destroy the lives of our neighbours.
Can this be done and keep "the religious part" alive (if, for nothing else, for tradition's sake)? Yes, for some people. No for others.
Can this be done without "the religious part" at all? With all the good-parts still identified and available for use? Yes, for some people. No for others.
One of the worst... worst in deception, worst in leading us to the wrong conclusion, worst in predicting the future, worst in popularity, worst in ease-of-making... worst mistakes in human thinking is to have the idea that somehow billions of different subjective humans can all find the answers to subjective questions using the same method.
The idea that "this method works fantastic for me... it must therefore be a perfect method and all people should use it!"... can in any way apply to subjective humans attempting to deal with subjective feelings of fear/depression/anger/life... is ludicrous.
It's a great idea when trying to objectively make sense of the reality of the world we live in... and science proves that.
But, people are different. Different from science, and different from each other.
People are subjective. We may both feel something we refer to as "fear". But how do we know that the "fear" you feel is equivalent to the "fear" I feel? Without having a definite answer to that question, how can we possibly consider that your solution to your feelings of fear would in any way be useful to my solution for my feelings of fear?
In this way, the only solution is to acknowledge that people are different, and we all have to find our own ways to deal with our own subjective feelings and reach our own subjective answers. We may be able to advise and help each other... and sometimes we may not be able to do this. Many people will likely have extremely similar paths towards their answers... and others will be completely different.
We can see where the "it worked for me, it worked for my bother, it worked for my whole god-damn town... what the hell do you mean it doesn't work for you!!!??" mentality comes from... but in looking at how subjective humans are, and how subjective these issues can be, is it really that strange to think that different people will require different paths to attain the same subjective goals?
So, again:
The issue is working out the good parts of religion, taking them out, and dumping the rest of the useless baggage that can be used to abuse and even destroy the lives of our neighbours.
For some of us this will include a lot of religion.
For some it will include a bit of religion.
For others it will include no religion at all.
...all three are valid avenues to reaching the subjective heights of human awareness, euphoria and clarity.
But let's be clear that "getting rid of religion" is not a solution to the problem. In fact, it's a very large part of the very large problem that created the mess in the first place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dogmafood, posted 08-23-2010 10:23 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Coyote, posted 08-24-2010 3:14 PM Stile has replied
 Message 21 by Dogmafood, posted 08-24-2010 5:45 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 14 of 181 (576576)
08-24-2010 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Coyote
08-24-2010 3:14 PM


Re: Part of the Problem
Coyote writes:
How about getting rid of religious fundamentalism, in all forms?
That seems to be where the real problem lies.
Much better... but still not dealing with the issue directly.
Even if we did get rid of "religious fundamentalism", don't you think that conmen and evil-folk would just find other avenues to take advantage of people?
Other avenues would be
-certain types of "natural remedies"
-certain types of "pseudo-science" or "alternative science"
-I'm sure there's plenty of other areas where snake-oil scams could be (or are?) rampant
I'm more concerned with identifying the real issue(s?) than I am with removing specific symptoms of the problem.
As far as I can tell, the largest issue seems to be related to the following:
-Strict adherence to the idea of "what works for one person can work for all people" even when dealing with subjective issues.
-In other words "intolerance of alternative solutions for the same problem"
(These can stem from a multitude of different things including fears of being wrong or simply departing from tradition)
Please feel free to add to this list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Coyote, posted 08-24-2010 3:14 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 132 of 181 (713943)
12-18-2013 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
12-18-2013 10:00 AM


Re: Am I evil for the anger I feel against evil?
Phat writes:
Am I evil for the anger I feel against evil?
No one is evil for their feelings or thoughts.
You would only be evil if you actually did something (or intended to do something) that was evil.
If you can control your anger, and make decisions that are not evil even though you are angry... then you're not evil.
If you cannot control your anger, and your resulting decisions produce evil... then you're evil.
what is it about them that makes me sooo angry?
Probably the direct harm to innocent people for personal gain thing. That's pretty infuriating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 12-18-2013 10:00 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 12-30-2013 12:08 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 142 of 181 (715210)
01-02-2014 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
12-30-2013 12:08 PM


Re: Solutions for Somali Pirates
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
No one is evil for their feelings or thoughts.
You would only be evil if you actually did something (or intended to do something) that was evil.
Would it be evil for us---as a society---to send drones after the pirates?
Yes, it would.
But, perhaps you are attempting to ask the question of should we send drones after the pirates?
That is another question, and it depends on many things.
Can we correctly identify the pirates?
Do they deserve a drone attack?
What are the possible consequences to non-pirates?
The resulting conclusion (in some certain scenario) may be "yes, we should send drones after the pirates."
But, even if that is the resulting conclusion... it's still evil.
It's hurting the pirates very much... most likely killing them.
It may be justified, it may be for a greater good, it may be the best option available to increase the total good as much as possible... but the action itself would still be evil.
When we stop recognizing the evil we're doing in the name of good... is when we open the door to become corrupted and begin to think that none of our actions are evil.
Evil actions are never okay... that's why they require justification.
But even if the justification is valid... it doesn't mean the action isn't evil anymore.
It just means we need to go through with the evil action.
Yes, it's complicated and convoluted. Quite possibly illogical or contradictory in some way.
I would hope that killing people would never be simple and easy and straightforward.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 12-30-2013 12:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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