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Author
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Topic: Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 7 of 295 (566687)
06-25-2010 9:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by hepteract
06-25-2010 7:59 PM
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Re: Infallible or Inerrant
Hi hepteract,
hepteract writes: I do not feel that they should agree with each other, I feel that much of the bible can be transitively proven false if it can be proven that the two stories are in contradiction with no possible way for both to be true. I am looking for any logical argument for both to be true. I don't expect it, but I feel that A) Christians deserve a chance to try, and B) Everyone has the right to know. They do not agree with each other. They do not contradict each other. They are two different stories about two different events. If you are looking for an argument for both to be true come visit me at: Message 1 We are at 399 posts why don't you come over and straighten out this born again child of God who is one of those 2 billion (I wish there was 2 billion) people that believe it is true. I am so stupid I believe the Bible story of creation fits the scientific evidence better that the popular BBT. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by hepteract, posted 06-25-2010 7:59 PM | | hepteract has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 8 by hepteract, posted 06-25-2010 11:15 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Factual Reference
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes: The verse does not support that Jesus does or doesn't "believe" the story was an actual event. As I showed in Message 11, the use of fictional characters in a speech doesn't mean the speaker feels the character existed in real life. The A&E story is a foundational myth. Maybe the verse you are talking about doesn't but John had a different take on the situation.
John writes: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John knew Jesus personally and he said Jesus created the universe and without Him was not anything made that was made. So Jesus was there when the man formed from the dust of the ground said:
Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Since Jesus was the one who made the woman from the rib of the man He was the one who delivered her to him. Jesus had first hand information of what happened in the beginning. I know you don't believe that but that is your problem not mine. God Bless.
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by purpledawn, posted 06-27-2010 8:21 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 26 of 295 (568209)
07-04-2010 9:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by hepteract
07-04-2010 2:41 PM
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Re: Still Inconsistent
Hi hepteract, Welcome to EvC.
hepteract writes: This is true, but it doesn't address what I said: Man is described as being created "before any plant of the field had yet sprung up". Any inconsistency proves falsehood of at least one of the stories, which proves that the Bible is not inerrant. But there is no inconsistency in the two stories. They are two different stories of events that took place billions of years apart in our time. The story in Genesis 2:4-4:24 took place in the DAY the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth. This would require them to happen prior to Genesis 1:2. The story in Genesis 1:2-2:3 took place some 6,000+ years ago. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by hepteract, posted 07-04-2010 2:41 PM | | hepteract has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 31 of 295 (568361)
07-05-2010 10:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 30 by hepteract
07-05-2010 2:18 AM
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Re: Still Inconsistent
Hi hepteract,
hepteract writes: That theory is obviously flawed, since the fact remains that genesis 1 describes plants being created before man and genesis 2 describes a man who was created before any plants. What is obviously flawed in your reading ability and comphrension. If two events are separated by billions of years in our time what difference does it make what the order of events that take place in each event have to do with each other? If the two events are a story about the same event there is a contradiction. There is no contradiction in the events that take place in Genesis 1:2-2:3 and Genesis 2:4-4:24. Genesis 2:4-Genesis 4:24 is the history of the DAY the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth as claimed in Genesis 2:4.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, According to this scripture the events following it to their conclusion happened in the DAY God created the Heaven and the Earth. The only way that could happen is if there was a light period of undetermined existence in which all the events took place. How long was that light period? No one knows Moses did not tell us. It did come to an end as we find darkness in Genesis 1:2. The events that took place in Genesis 1:2-Genesis 2:3 took place about 6,000+ years ago. Since they are talking about two different events separated by a vast existence there is no contradiction. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by hepteract, posted 07-05-2010 2:18 AM | | hepteract has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 60 of 295 (569834)
07-23-2010 11:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 59 by ramoss
07-23-2010 11:01 AM
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Re: Still Inconsistent
Hi ramoss,
ramos writes: Except, if you read it IN CONTEXT, in the original hebrew, the way that the term "YOM" is used (because it specifically says, it was day and it was night"< the term refers to a 24 hour period. I did read it in context in the original language. I use Gods definition of yom which is found in Genesis 1:5 which says:
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
God called a light portion Day. God called the end of that light portion which ended with evening and the dark portion that ended with the light portion of day two the first day. Now I don't care what definition you use for yom I will use what God called the first day and then the following days which was controlled by the rotation of the earth in relation to the light source. Now if you have a PHD in Biblical Hebrew and want to give me lessons that will complement my 6 years of lessons and my 45 years of studying it I am all ears. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by ramoss, posted 07-23-2010 11:01 AM | | ramoss has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 61 by hERICtic, posted 07-24-2010 7:15 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 62 of 295 (570049)
07-25-2010 8:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 61 by hERICtic
07-24-2010 7:15 PM
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Re: Still Inconsistent
Hi hERICtic,
hERICtic writes: Are jar and I the same person to you? Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Unless you include the light portion in which the Heaven and the Earth was created in Genesis 1:1 you have an evening which ended with the following light period some 12 hours later. If you include the light period that came before the evening of Genesis 1:2 and the dark period that ended with the morning light period of day two which God declared the first day. Then you have a day that consisted of a light period and a dark period just like the light period and the dark period of a day today. This was God's definition of Day not mine. God declares a light portion as day. God declares the end of a light period followed by a dark period which ends with the beginning of the next day as the first day. He then repeats this discription through day six. On day seven God ceases His creation work and is still ceased from His creation work so for God that day has not ended yet. Our system of keeping time has no effect on God as there has always been light where He is. Just on great big eternal light period with a little space marked off with time in it for us humans. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by hERICtic, posted 07-24-2010 7:15 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 82 of 295 (576338)
08-23-2010 6:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by hERICtic
07-25-2010 10:08 AM
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Re: Still Inconsistent
Hi ERIC, Sorry about that first quote.
hERICtic writes: I'm sorry, I'm just not following you. Every day has a morning and evening. Every day has a light period and a dark one. Its a perfect description of a typical day. I asked all those questions which you didnt respond to, but every time an evening and morning are used in scripture, it refers to a 24 hour day. Every time "yom" is used with a number, it also refers to a 24 hour day. To suggest the author is not refering to a 24 hour day is twisting and/or ignoring what Genesis states. According to God every day has a light period and a dark period. According to your interpertation the first day which started with the evening in Genesis 1:2 and ended with the morning of the light period of day 2 would only contain 12 hours. But God declared the light period (DAY) in which God created the Heaven and the Earth combined with the dark period that ended with the light period of day two as day one.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, The Heaven and the Earth existed at Genesis 1:2 as the land mass was covered with water. Genesis 2:4 says the Heaven and the Earth was created in the day that the LORD God made the Earth and the Heavens. So the Heaven and the Earth had to be created in the light period that ended with evening found in Genesis 1:2.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. From Gods declaration of day one in Genesis 1:5 all days were made of a light period that ended with evening and a dark period that ended with the light period of the following day which lasted almost 24 hours.
hERICtic writes: What exactly is your stance? Is it a 6-24 hour day creation or not? The first day in Genesis 1:5 that starts with evening and ends with morning was only 12 hours unless you add the light period that Genesis 1:1 took place in. All other days from then until now has been almost 24 hours. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by hERICtic, posted 07-25-2010 10:08 AM | | hERICtic has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 7:22 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Evidence Needed
Hi PD,
Purple Dawn writes: Show evidence that the 7th day hasn't ended for God. Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. The Hebrew word kalah which means, 1) to accomplish, cease, consume, determine, end, fail, finish, be complete, be accomplished, be ended, be at an end, be finished, be spent. I can find no verse in the Bible that states God has resumed His creation work. Therefore He is still resting from His work.
Purple Dawn writes: Show evidence that there has always been light where God "is." John writes: 1John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. John writes: Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. These texts declare God is light. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by purpledawn, posted 07-25-2010 11:09 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Evidence Needed
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes: You're assuming that he wishes to continue creating. No assumptions necessary. John tells us God is going to create a new Heaven and Earth in the future. Revelations 21:1
purpledawn writes: There is no information in the story to support your contention that the seventh day has not ended yet. I never said the seventh day has not ended yet. I have said Gods seventh day of rest has not ended yet. God does not reside insided the universe. He is not a creature of time and space. God has only had eternity He does not have days. He invented days for humans that is why He declared what a day was. First He declared it was a period of light. Then He added a dark period to the light period and called that day also. God did not give us how many hours there was in a day. God did declare that the light period that ended in the evening found in Genesis 1:2 coupled with the dark period that ended with the light period of day two as the first day. That is God's definition not mine. Every close of a light period with evening (begining of a dark period) and the close of that dark period with the light of the following morning has been a day. In early history there was 12 hours in the light period and 12 hours in the dark period with hours of different lengths due to the time of the year.
purpledawn writes: Light represents what is good and true, while darkness represents what is evil and false. See John 3:19-21. The verse isn't speaking of the common meaning of the word light. I don't get that statement from reading John 3:19, 20.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Light is come into the world. Nothing about what is good and true or evil and false. Men loved darkness rather than light. Nothing about what is good and true or evil and false. Because their deeds were evil. Nothing about what is good and true or evil and false. There was something about what was evil and it was mans deeds. Every one that doeth evil hateth the light. Nothing about what is good and true or evil and false. Crooks don't like the light as well as they do the darkness. The good guys don't mind the light They have nothing to hide.
purpledawn writes: The verse in revelation is a vision. Notice it says the glory of God will lighten it, not God. Glory does not provide luminescence. You did notice that the sun and moon was not necessary didn't you. Is the verse in 1 John a vision also? You skipped right over it.
John writes: 1John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. This is a declarative statement "God is light".
purpledawn writes: What you've shown is creative writing, not the common meaning of light. I didn't create anything. I just copied what was written. On the other hand you did some creative translation. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 08-23-2010 9:01 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 96 of 295 (576632)
08-24-2010 9:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Joseppi
08-24-2010 7:22 AM
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Re: Still Inconsistent
Hi Joseppi, Welcome to EvC.
Joseppi writes: In my understanding the phrase "in the day" refers to the whole time period thus far presented. One evidence of this is that verse one says God created the heaven and the earth. And in that verse heaven is singular. According to the text "in the day" refers to the day the Lord God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, At the end of this light period there was two heavens. The one where God resides. And the one our galaxy resides in. In Genesis 1:7 our atmosphere was formed. Now we have 3 heavens according to Paul. 2 Corinthians 12:2
Joseppi writes: My understanding is that Genesis 1-2 is of unknown length in which no marking of time is denoted. My understanding is that Genesis is an undetrmined period of light that ended with the darkness in Genesis 1:2. The darkness in Genesis 1:2 ended with the morning of the light period that was the beginning of day two in Genesis 1:5.
Joseppi writes: I consider the days of creation week to be 24 hour periods since, they are limited by use of the common man's understanding of an "evening and a morning". How can you get 24 hours between the evening in Genesis 1:2 and the morning in Genesis 1:5. According to my caculations that is 12 hours at best unless you are in the vicinity of the North Pole. Before you can have an evening you have to have a period of light. But yes from day two until now a day has been a light period and a dark period of almost 24 hours.
Joseppi writes: I consider Heaven in verse eight to be capitalized to indicate that this earth is the ordained place where God is to dwell. God dwelled somewhere before He created the Heaven and the Earth. God came and dwelled on earth in the human form we call Jesus. God sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in born again children of His. Now where is any reference to God dwelling in our atmosphere? As has been pointed out the Hebrew that Moses used when he wrote Genesis did not have capital letters. In Message 90 You stated:
Joseppi writes: Regardless, I don't read Hebrew and am not retranslating. You were just making an assertion of what you believe as you did in several places in the post I am responding to. I do read and write Biblical Hebrew and Greek. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Joseppi, posted 08-24-2010 7:22 AM | | Joseppi has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 97 of 295 (576633)
08-24-2010 9:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 94 by Coragyps
08-24-2010 3:29 PM
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Re: Chronology
Hi Coragyps,
Coragyps writes: Genesis flunks Biology 101 yet again. The mankind created male and female in Genesis 1:27 in the image/likeness of God was not created out of the other. In fact there is no number of mankind created in the image/likeness of God. So no Genesis does not flunk Biology 101. The misunderstanding of what Genesis says is the problem. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by Coragyps, posted 08-24-2010 3:29 PM | | Coragyps has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 99 of 295 (576642)
08-24-2010 9:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
08-24-2010 2:51 PM
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Re: Chronology
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes: I think the Hebrew scholars would disagree. There are threads somewhere about "created, formed and made" if you care to search for them. As I recall, the words are pretty much interchangeable. The Hebrew word bara' primary meaning is create, shape, form and is used when an entity did not exist. This word is used in Genesis 1:1, 1:21, 1:27, Things that had not existed began to exist. In Genesis 2:3, 2:4, 5:1, 5:2, 6:7, all refer to one of the three events in the first three verses given. If I remember correctly the only other things created were covenants God made with mankind. David did ask God to create in him a clean heart where mind would have been a better translation. The Hebrew word `asah primary meaning is to do, fashion, accomplish, make, and is used to take existing material and form or fashion an entity. As the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7. Two different words for different functions. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by ringo, posted 08-24-2010 2:51 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 102 of 295 (576756)
08-25-2010 1:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
08-25-2010 12:49 PM
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Re: Chronology
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: Even the people at Answers in Genesis don't swallow that one. Since they believe in a young earth the two words must mean the same thing to them. But the Lexicons and science disagree with them. The earth and universe is not young, it is very, very old. Therefore the creation in Genesis 1:1 could not have took place 6,000+ years ago. If you want to take their article and put forth an argument for the two words being the same and interchangable then I will refute your position. I will not waste my time refuting AIG. Concerning your quote I will make an observation:
quote:
making a strong distinction between bara and asah in Genesis 1—2 is as unjustified as making a distinction between create and make in English.
Mankind has never created anything. We can not take an absence of existence and cause something to begin to exist. All we can do is rearrange existing materials. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by ringo, posted 08-25-2010 12:49 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 103 by jar, posted 08-25-2010 1:52 PM | | ICANT has replied | | | Message 104 by ringo, posted 08-25-2010 2:04 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Light and Darkness Metaphors
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes: That isn't evidence that God is still resting or that his seventh day is longer than ours. I don't consider floods, plagues, parting a sea, delivering manna, and carving out commandments etc. to be rest. It is a lot of work taking care of kids. Either God is on duty watching over us or he isn't. What was created that did not exist in a flood? What was created in a plague that did not exist prior to the plague? What was created in the parting of a sea? What was created in delivering manna (food of angels). What was created in the carving out of commandments? What is created in taking care of God's children as He watches over us? Created = כרא bara' create where no material is used. The only places I can find that this took place is in: Genesis 1:1, the Heaven and the Earth. Genesis 1:21 God created great whales. Genesis 1:27 God created mankind male and female in His image/likeness. In Isaiah 45:7 Isaiah quotes God is as saying He created darkness and evil. Isaiah fortold that God would create new heavens and a new earth in Isa 65:17 as well as a new Jerusalem in 65:18. Now if you can present a text that says something began to exist or will begin to exist where it did not exist we can discuss it.
purpledawn writes: Ceasing from creation work doesn't tell us that God's day of rest hasn't ended. Not creating more doesn't tell us that God's day of rest hasn't ended. You're filling in the unknown. Show the evidence please. What did God rest from in Genesis 2:3?
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. In Genesis 1:2-27 God rearranged a lot of things in the universe and on the earth. The only place anything is said to be bara' created is Genesis 1:21, and 1:27, everything else was just a rearranging of things existing or called forth from things that had existed after their kind or seed that was in the ground. Thus the Hebrew word עשה made, is used in other events that took place in Genesis 1:2-27. So lets examine Genesis 2:3
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it. Because He rested from all his work. What kind of work did God rest from? Work which God created and made which was declared finished in Genesis 2:1. So he was resting from His כרא bara' creating that He had produced. I can find no record of a thing God caused to begin to exist that did not exist from then until now recorded in the Bible. If you can find one please share. If none can be found God is still resting from His כרא bara' creating. I hope that clarifies what I said of God's day of rest and what He is resting from having not ended yet. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 106 of 295 (576782)
08-25-2010 3:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 103 by jar
08-25-2010 1:52 PM
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Re: Chronology
Hi jar,
jar writes: The creation in Genesis 2 didn't happen 6,000+ years ago either. According to Genesis 2:4 the verses following it is the record of what took place in the day the LORD God created (caused the Heaven and the Earth to exist) the earth and the heavens. So it took place a very, very, very, very long time ago.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by jar, posted 08-25-2010 1:52 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 107 by jar, posted 08-25-2010 3:51 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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