Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 106 of 295 (576782)
08-25-2010 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
08-25-2010 1:52 PM


Re: Chronology
Hi jar,
jar writes:
The creation in Genesis 2 didn't happen 6,000+ years ago either.
According to Genesis 2:4 the verses following it is the record of what took place in the day the LORD God created (caused the Heaven and the Earth to exist) the earth and the heavens.
So it took place a very, very, very, very long time ago.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 08-25-2010 1:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 08-25-2010 3:51 PM ICANT has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 107 of 295 (576786)
08-25-2010 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by ICANT
08-25-2010 3:39 PM


Re: Chronology
According to Genesis 2:4 the verses following it is the record of what took place in the day the LORD God created (caused the Heaven and the Earth to exist) the earth and the heavens.
So it took place a very, very, very, very long time ago.
Nothing in Genesis 2 refers to Genesis 1. They are two different myths written by two different cultures at two different periods in time. Further, the myth found in Genesis 2&3 was written hundreds of years if not thousands of years before the fable written in Genesis 1.
There were no chapters in the Hebrew scrolls, or verses. What we see as chapters or verses is the editing and redacting of much later folk.
There is no continuity or relation between the myths.
In addition, they are all factually wrong.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by ICANT, posted 08-25-2010 3:39 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2010 12:07 PM jar has replied
 Message 133 by Joseppi, posted 08-30-2010 8:24 AM jar has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 108 of 295 (576831)
08-25-2010 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ICANT
08-25-2010 3:33 PM


Re: Light and Darkness Metaphors
quote:
I hope that clarifies what I said of God's day of rest and what He is resting from having not ended yet.
Yes, you're writing fiction again (still). You're making a distinction that means nothing.
The story said he rested on the seventh day which is a specific period of time. The Sabbath supposedly mirrors this rest. The people went back to work on the next day. There's nothing in the story that says God did otherwise. It doesn't mean he had to start creating if no creating was needed.
The narrator said he rested, not that he continued to rest.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ICANT, posted 08-25-2010 3:33 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2010 1:17 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 134 by Joseppi, posted 08-30-2010 8:29 AM purpledawn has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 109 of 295 (576893)
08-26-2010 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
08-25-2010 2:04 PM


Re: Chronology
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
I don't want to waste time talking to you about Genesis at all. I just wanted to point out that even Answers in Genesis know more about Hebrew than you do.
I can understand why you don't want to discuss Genesis with me.
But why would you accept AIG statements on anything when they are classified here at EvC as a bunch of idiot's and not trustworthy.
Now if you can find someone over at AIG that is equal to Delitzsch, Dillman, Pusey or Driver I will read what they have to say and give it weight. If not I will take their advice along with my studies instead.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 08-25-2010 2:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 08-26-2010 10:33 AM ICANT has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 110 of 295 (576897)
08-26-2010 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ICANT
08-26-2010 10:02 AM


Re: Chronology
ICANT writes:
I can understand why you don't want to discuss Genesis with me.
But why would you accept AIG statements on anything when they are classified here at EvC as a bunch of idiot's and not trustworthy.
I accept what the Hebrew scholars say and in some cases, so does AIG. I brought up AIG because, even if they're idiots, in terms of scholarship they're still head and shoulders above you.
-------------
ABE:
I found one of the threads where this was discussed previously:
Genesis 1 and 2: The Difference Between Created and Formed
Edited by ringo, : Added link.
Edited by ringo, : Sopelling.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2010 10:02 AM ICANT has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 111 of 295 (576907)
08-26-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
08-24-2010 2:51 PM


Created and Formed
Here is the thread concerning created and formed.
Genesis 1 and 2: The Difference Between Created and Formed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 08-24-2010 2:51 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Joseppi, posted 08-30-2010 8:32 AM AdminPD has seen this message but not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 112 of 295 (576912)
08-26-2010 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
08-25-2010 3:51 PM


Re: Chronology
Hi jar,
jar writes:
Nothing in Genesis 2 refers to Genesis 1. They are two different myths written by two different cultures at two different periods in time. Further, the myth found in Genesis 2&3 was written hundreds of years if not thousands of years before the fable written in Genesis 1.
Whether you believe the text or not, nor whether it is a myth or when it was written does not matter
Does Genesis 1:1 say? Yes/No
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Does Genesis 2:4 say? Yes/No
2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Please explain why Genesis 2:4 is not refering to the time the Heaven and Earth began to exist.
jar writes:
There were no chapters in the Hebrew scrolls, or verses. What we see as chapters or verses is the editing and redacting of much later folk.
There was no chapters in the original Biblical Hebrew. Agreed
There was no verses in original Biblical Hebrew. Agreed
The Torah (what is known as the 5 books of Moses) in Babylon in the Talmudic Era was divided into fifty-four sections.
jar writes:
There is no continuity or relation between the myths.
In addition, they are all factually wrong.
Do you have any documentation or evidence to support these two assertions?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 08-25-2010 3:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 08-26-2010 12:25 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 281 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2010 12:33 PM ICANT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 295 (576913)
08-26-2010 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by ICANT
08-26-2010 12:07 PM


Re: Chronology
ICANT writes:
jar writes:
There is no continuity or relation between the myths.
In addition, they are all factually wrong.
Do you have any documentation or evidence to support these two assertions?
Of course. The earth could not be created before the sun.
Plants were not created before sea life.
Seed bearing plants were not the first plants.
That is sufficient to prove that Genesis 1 is not factual.
Man was not created before plants and animals.
That is enough to prove that Genesis 2 is not factual.
Further, even if Genesis 2.4 was actually part of Genesis 2, it is NOT referring to Genesis 1 which had not even been written at the time.
I'm sorry but your argument is as empty as the God you try to market.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2010 12:07 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2010 1:12 PM jar has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 114 of 295 (576921)
08-26-2010 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
08-26-2010 12:25 PM


Re: Chronology
Hi jar,
jar writes:
Of course. The earth could not be created before the sun.
Why not?
But who said it was?
The universe was created in the beginning including the stars, moon, sun, and earth. Everything you can and cannot see was created in the beginning.
jar writes:
Plants were not created before sea life.
According to what witness?
According to what observal reproducable evidence?
jar writes:
Seed bearing plants were not the first plants.
According to what witness?
According to what observal reproducable evidence?
jar writes:
That is sufficient to prove that Genesis 1 is not factual.
According to whom?
jar writes:
Man was not created before plants and animals.
According to what witness?
According to what observal reproducable evidence?
jar writes:
That is enough to prove that Genesis 2 is not factual.
According to whom?
jar writes:
Further, even if Genesis 2.4 was actually part of Genesis 2, it is NOT referring to Genesis 1 which had not even been written at the time.
I never said it was refering to chapter 1 of Genesis.
I said it was refering to the day the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth.
Which happens to be recorded in the first line in the Torah.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 08-26-2010 12:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 08-26-2010 1:30 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 118 by Coragyps, posted 08-26-2010 3:57 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 115 of 295 (576922)
08-26-2010 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by purpledawn
08-25-2010 8:35 PM


Re: Light and Darkness Metaphors
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
The narrator said he rested, not that he continued to rest.
The Hebrew text says God ceased from His creating work.
Has He begun to create again since that time?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by purpledawn, posted 08-25-2010 8:35 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2010 6:32 AM ICANT has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 295 (576924)
08-26-2010 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by ICANT
08-26-2010 1:12 PM


Re: Chronology
ICANT writes:
The universe was created in the beginning including the stars, moon, sun, and earth. Everything you can and cannot see was created in the beginning.
I'm sorry but you are just playing silly word games and that is not what the story says. Genesis 1 is the first book of the Torah and it says that the sun was created on day four not on the first day. You just seem to love taking crap out of context.
The witness that supports my assertions is called physics and the earth. This earth was created after the sun and as part of the process of creating this solar system. It is all just the result of physics.
We can see the progression of life forms over time. The first seed bearing plants appear about 150-200 million years ago. There was lots of plant life before then.
Sea live existed before land life.
We can check the validity of the mythology claims made in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 against the record that really exists, the earth we live on and the answer is, the myths are factually wrong.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2010 1:12 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 08-27-2010 5:54 PM jar has replied
 Message 136 by Joseppi, posted 08-30-2010 8:50 AM jar has not replied

kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 117 of 295 (576936)
08-26-2010 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Joseppi
08-23-2010 12:50 PM


Re: Chronology
Where in Genesis chapter two is there any chronological order presented, other than, what is demanded by the context of the chapter's narration?
The chapter begins by closing the discussion of chapter one and opening a new topic. The new topic is GENERATIONS of....
Which has nothing to do with chronological order as any requirement.
In chapter two there exists no terms implying chronology.
The word "AND" doesn't mean "AND THEN".
Chronology is implied by the Hebrew "waw-consecutive" or "preterite" construction, which runs through chapter 2 as well as chapter 1. This is the normal grammatical construction used for narrative. It implies a blow-by-blow chronological account. Thus it often is translated "and then" or "then" instead of "and." Check some other translations for chapters 1 and 2. Quite a few of them (NASB, NLT, NKJV, HCSB, New Century, God's Word) sometimes render the waw-consecutive as "then" in these chapters.
But the waw-consecutive construction does not always show chronology. E.g. Gen 2:15 starts with a waw-consecutive, but it is actually a restatement of Gen 2:8b. It does not indicate that man was placed in the garden twice. (Gen 2:9-14 is a non-chronological side comment; the waw-consecutive at Gen 2:15 repeats the last chronological piece and serves to pull us back into the chronological account.)
So the waw-consecutive construction in chapter 2 normally indicates chronology, but not always. These non-chronological exceptions should be determined from the literary context.
One could argue that the chronology of chapter 2 should defer to that presented in chapter 1, since chapter 1 came first. On the other hand, chapter 2 reads more like a historical, chronological narrative, with a similar style to the following chapters. Chapter 1 is different; it is much more stylized and formulaic in its construction. So one could also argue that the chronology in chapter 2 should take precedence over chapter 1 on this basis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 12:50 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Joseppi, posted 08-30-2010 8:53 AM kbertsche has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 118 of 295 (576944)
08-26-2010 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by ICANT
08-26-2010 1:12 PM


Re: Chronology
According to what witness?
According to what observal reproducable evidence?
According to the witness of the rocks that your man-in-the-sky supposedly created. That evidence is reproduced in mines and oil wells and archaeological digs and basements all over the world!!

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2010 1:12 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Joseppi, posted 08-30-2010 9:04 AM Coragyps has not replied
 Message 149 by ICANT, posted 09-04-2010 1:24 PM Coragyps has not replied
 Message 150 by III, posted 09-04-2010 2:24 PM Coragyps has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 119 of 295 (577085)
08-27-2010 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by ICANT
08-26-2010 1:17 PM


Re: Light and Darkness Metaphors
quote:
The Hebrew text says God ceased from His creating work.
Has He begun to create again since that time?
As I said, you're making a distinction that doesn't mean anything.
in Message 62 you said:
ICANT writes:
On day seven God ceases His creation work and is still ceased from His creation work so for God that day has not ended yet. Our system of keeping time has no effect on God as there has always been light where He is. Just on great big eternal light period with a little space marked off with time in it for us humans.
He ceased creating and rested on the seventh day. It didn't say he rested for several days or that he was resting until he could start creating again.
God not starting another creation project doesn't mean "God's seventh day of rest from his first project has not ended yet."
His project of creating was done. He rested for a day. We don't know what he did on the 8th day. The story doesn't tell us that God's day is longer than ours.
You're adding to the story. You have no evidence from the story for your position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2010 1:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by ICANT, posted 08-27-2010 5:58 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 120 of 295 (577226)
08-27-2010 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
08-26-2010 1:30 PM


Re: Chronology
Hi jar,
jar writes:
I'm sorry but you are just playing silly word games and that is not what the story says. Genesis 1 is the first book of the Torah and it says that the sun was created on day four not on the first day. You just seem to love taking crap out of context.
You are on record as saying there was no chapter and verses in the original text.
You are on record as saying redactors have arranged these texts.
So on what evidence do you base the conclusion that I am playing silly word games.
I read Genesis 1:1 and it says: "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth.
A simple declarative statement of completed action.
I then read Genesis 2:4 which says: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"
This is a declarative statement that the following verses are the generations/history of the heavens and earth.
This is a declarative statement that, that history is of the day the Lord God brought into existence the Heaven and Earth as well as how He formed/made the earth and the heavens.
Now please explain how/why I should not come to the conclusion that the verses following Genesis 2:4 is the history of what took place in Genesis 1:1.
jar writes:
The witness that supports my assertions is called physics and the earth.
Is physics a mechanism?
I thought physics was a scientific study of matter and energy and how they interact with each other.
jar writes:
This earth was created after the sun and as part of the process of creating this solar system. It is all just the result of physics.
I have no problem with the earth being bara' created after the sun was bara' created.
I do have a problem with the assertion that the sun was created in Genesis 1:16. The sun already existed but was made visible to the earth at this time.
In the KT extenction event it is said the sun could not shine for at least a year and would be reduced by about 20% for around 10 years.
Does that mean the sun did not exist while it was not penetrating the cloud of dust and gases that covered the earth?
I don't think so. The sun was there it just was not visible but when the cloud and gases were disapated the sun could then do its job.
jar writes:
We can see the progression of life forms over time.
Well no we can't. We can see millions of years of stasis with very little change.
We have fossils of life forms that is millions of years old and living life forms today of the same life form with very little change.
Then all of a sudden we have new life forms with no links to any preceeding life form which is called punctuated equilibrium.
But if as you say we can see a progression of life forms why is it that none of the trees of life have a picture of the life form that existed when the branch branches off the trunk?
I only see the picture at the end of the branch.
So the fossil record attests to the fact of Biblical teaching of kinds not evolution.
jar writes:
The first seed bearing plants appear about 150-200 million years ago. There was lots of plant life before then.
Sea live existed before land life.
There is nothing in the record of the events that took place in the day the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth that says seed bearing plants appeared before non seed bearing plants. In fact no seed bearing plants are mentioned.
So whats the problem?
We have fossils of sea life microbes dating 1.43 billion years that are nearly identical to the archaea- and bacteria-harboring structures found today on sea beds.
What does that prove? It proves the Bible is correct when it talks of kinds.
jar writes:
We can check the validity of the mythology claims made in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 against the record that really exists, the earth we live on and the answer is, the myths are factually wrong.
No, you can only check the validity of the misunderstandings of what the record of Genesis chapter one and two says happened.
Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning.
The first thing you would have to do to compare what the Bible says with the record found in the earth is determine when the beginning was.
Was the beginning l3.7 billion years ago as the present claim is?
If so then you would need to know how all the matter and energy that the universe is created from began to exist.
The current solution to the problem of that matter and energy beginning to exist is that it already existed in a former universe or some form.
The problem with that is, how did the matter and energy begin to exist to exist in one of those forms?
So we have two statements to compare.
Bible: "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth."
Science: In the beginning "we don't know".
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 08-26-2010 1:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 08-27-2010 6:07 PM ICANT has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024