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Author Topic:   Is religion good for us?
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 76 of 181 (577122)
08-27-2010 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
08-26-2010 4:59 PM


Re: Religion = Bonbons
If a child can learn to read, a child CAN learn critical thinking skills. It really isn't difficult. Anyways, I think you might agree that these basic life skills are, much, much, much more easy to learn than the tenets/dogma of any religion. (Have you ever seen video of children inside a madrasa muslim school learning to memorize the ENTIRE Koran? holy chrysler!!! Again, let's DISPLACE some of that learning with some critical thinking skills.)
As a previous art director for a publishing house that specialized in creative problem solving materials for children, I can vouch for the results.
Check out this book if you are curious:
Creative Problem Solving for Children
CPS for Kids: A Resource Book for Teaching Creative Problem-Solving to Children - Bob Eberle, Bob Stanish - Google Books

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 Message 69 by ringo, posted 08-26-2010 4:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 77 of 181 (577168)
08-27-2010 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by archaeologist
08-27-2010 4:25 AM


until you people start factoring in the fact that once you remove religion, especially christianity, ytou remove all morals and the need to be good.
Then why am I and other atheists (who make up a measurable proportion of the population nowadays) not murderous rampaging psychopathic rapists? Why don't I steal? Why do I speak up for oppressed minorities? Why do I try to help my neighbors when I'm able, and give to charities?
let me cite some historical examples:
1. the rape of nanking
2. the comfort women of korea
3. the japanese from let's say 1890s to 1945
The Japanese were not atheist for the most part. Traditional Japanese religion (Shinto, I beleive, but I could be wrong) did in fact recognize a deity. He was the Emperor, very much like how the Egyptians considered their Pharaohs to be living gods.
The cause wasn't the presence or lack of religion, or even religious differences. It was a problem of cultural separations and war, which typically results in the dehumanization of enemy nations.
4. dr. megeles and his fellow nazi scientists
5. the gestapo
6. the nazis
The Nazis were not atheist - they were Christian. The entire Nazi movement, particularly the antisemitism, was taken directly from Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant movement and author of On the Jews and their Lies. The belt buckle of the Nazi military uniform was inscribed with the words (translated) "God with us." Hitler himself in his many political speeches and in his book Mein Kampf repeatedly referred to the Christian god. The Italian Gestapo were similar - most were Catholic.
7. stalin and his purges
8. lenin and his ruthlessness
9. communist russia
10 mao
11 communist china
I can at least give you that these were atheist.
But oddly enough, after their highly immoral governments acted to remove religion, the people of Russia and China still did not revert to murderous rampaging psychopathic rapists and thieves. If morality were so absolutely necessary in order for morality to exist at all, we would anticipate that after religion had been removed from these societies, they would collapse due to the total breakdown of social order, or we would at the very least observe a corresponding increase in amoral behavior. Yet we did not observe anty such thing - Russian and Chinese people without religion seem to have been just as ethical as they were with religion.
More examples lie in modern Europe, where religion is losing its grip and atheism is on a steep rise. In the Scandinavian nations, atheists represent a significant portion of the population...yet they have some of the best social programs for caring for the sick and poor and elderly of all nations, as well as some of the lowest rates of violent crime.
Religion is not necessary for morality to exist. When religion is removed from a society or an individual, moral behavior remains. This isn't opinion, it is easily observable fact.
and the list goes on...religion isn't he problem...well christianity isn't the problem... it is those men and women who decide not to follow Christ and seek fame, power, control et al, and become very corrupted (but this last part is not limited to world leaders, it takes place on the local level as well as evidenced in the prayer/murder thread)
christianity is good for you if you obey but if you do not then christianity cannot help you, the choice is always up to you.
Christianity can be good for you, yes. But Christianity can also be very bad, and it can never be as good for you as some of the alternatives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by archaeologist, posted 08-27-2010 4:25 AM archaeologist has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 78 of 181 (577170)
08-27-2010 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by dronestar
08-27-2010 9:10 AM


Re: Religion = Bonbons
dronester writes:
I think you might agree that these basic life skills are, much, much, much more easy to learn than the tenets/dogma of any religion.
If you include critical thinking in "life skills" , I definitely do not agree. I was almost literally born in church and I could quote Bible verses before I could read. For many people, it's much easier to memorize than to think critically. As humans, we have an innate ability to recognize patterns and books like the Bible often take advantage of that ability to make their message easier to remember. In contrast, critical thinking is always an uphill battle.
But that has little to do with whether religion is "more good" or "more bad". Both memorization and critical thinking are tools which can be used for either good or bad. There's no magic wand that's all good or all bad.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by dronestar, posted 08-27-2010 9:10 AM dronestar has replied

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 79 of 181 (577173)
08-27-2010 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by archaeologist
08-27-2010 4:29 AM


Re: Religion = Bonbons
what a laugh. a bunch of biased, unobkective, hatefilled people thinking they can decide for billions of people.
Rather amusingly, I've been perhaps the largest defender of religion in this thread, and I've specifically said multiple times that religion in general is not necessarily "evil." I most certainly have not advocated the forcible removal of religion. I don;t think I have the ability to decide on matters of faith for anyone other than myself - I can only express my own judgment based on the factual costs and benefits of religion in human history. I fully support the basic human right to believe or disbelieve according to the dictates of one's own conscience.
your analogy fails for it assumes that the other person at the table is like-minded with you. with no morality, there is nothing stopping him from picking up the gun when you are not looking and shooting you to get the food you bought at the grocery store.
The analogy didn't include anyone else at the table. You completely and totally missed the entire point, despite the fact that I spelled it out right below the analogy. And you're continuing your easily disproved "morality is impossible without religion" mantra. Stop that - it's been disproved so many times it's really no longer amusing.
you people just do not think things through and are very blinded indeed. your blaming of religion for things religion did not do undermines any credibility you think you have.
Once again, I've been perhaps the largest defender of religion in this thread.
It would seem that you are a troll, that you don;t seek to engage in debate, but rather to find an atheist post and call it ridiculous without actually referring to the content.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 181 (577176)
08-27-2010 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by archaeologist
08-27-2010 4:25 AM


archaeologist writes:
until you people start factoring in the fact that once you remove religion, especially christianity, ytou remove all morals and the need to be good. let me cite some historical examples:
1. the rape of nanking
2. the comfort women of korea
3. the japanese from let's say 1890s to 1945
4. dr. megeles and his fellow nazi scientists
5. the gestapo
6. the nazis
7. stalin and his purges
8. lenin and his ruthlessness
9. communist russia
10 mao
11 communist china
and the list goes on...religion isn't he problem...well christianity isn't the problem... it is those men and women who decide not to follow Christ and seek fame, power, control et al, and become very corrupted (but this last part is not limited to world leaders, it takes place on the local level as well as evidenced in the prayer/murder thread)
I'm sorry but once again you simply post falsehoods and irrelevancies.
The Nazi's were Christian. That is fact.
The Comfort Women of Korea were no different than what was not just condoned but commanded in the Bible.
quote:
Judges 21:10-24 (New International Version)
10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 "This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin." 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.
13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.
15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the LORD had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. 16 And the elders of the assembly said, "With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? 17 The Benjamite survivors must have heirs," they said, "so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18 We can't give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: 'Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.' 19 But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, to the north of Bethel, and east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and to the south of Lebonah."
20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, "Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, 'Do us a kindness by helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war, and you are innocent, since you did not give your daughters to them.' "
23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the girls were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.
24 At that time the Israelites left that place and went home to their tribes and clans, each to his own inheritance.
Have you ever even read the Bible?
But we don't have to look that far to find even more examples of the evil of Christianity. Just look at all the shrines and sacred places in the Americas that have been desecrated by Christians, the native children taken from their families, their names changed, there language and customs forbidden. Look at the very simple fact that the US has never lived up to a single treaty we made with the Native Americans.
Must you always misrepresent Christianity?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 81 of 181 (577186)
08-27-2010 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
08-27-2010 11:52 AM


Re: Religion = Bonbons
ringo writes:
For MANY people, it's much easier to memorize than to think critically.
Oy.
(BTW, There's that word "many" again. Grrr.)
(BTW, BTW, The huge time and effort to memorize the entire koran MUST be hurculean. I never had great memory skills, so I think I'd fail at this task.)
I am getting the impression from you that you think learning critical thinking skills is a ardous, time-consuming, task to learn. It isn't. Really. I take it you didn't look at my link to the book "Creative problem solving for CHILDREN". I think it would help for you to review what exactly creative problem solving teaching involves.
Everybody already uses critical thinking skills everyday, probably a hundred times in the grocery store alone. Whenever we choose a cereal based on ingredients or price we are using critical thinking. I believe Rhavin had also wrote above that most people use critical thinking in all aspects of their lives (you too), EXCEPT for the religious part. The idea is just to further embrace it, make it a habit in ALL things.
ringo writes:
Both memorization and critical thinking are tools which can be used for either good or bad.
Well, of course. But now your current argument is swaying off the religious topic. Let me re-ask: if there is only a finite amount of time and money for studies and learning, which would you rather have children learn/memorize:?
a. skills in critical thinking
b. religious dogma

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 08-27-2010 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 181 (577187)
08-27-2010 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by dronestar
08-27-2010 12:22 PM


Re: Religion = Bonbons
dronestar writes:
Well, of course. But now your current argument is swaying off the religious topic. Let me re-ask: if there is only a finite amount of time and money for studies and learning, which would you rather have children learn/memorize:?
a. skills in critical thinking
b. religious dogma
False dichotomy alert.
The two are not mutually exclusive nor are the choices limited to just those two items. Further, religious education does not equal learning dogma.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 81 by dronestar, posted 08-27-2010 12:22 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 83 of 181 (577189)
08-27-2010 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by archaeologist
08-27-2010 4:25 AM


until you people start factoring in the fact that once you remove religion, especially christianity, ytou remove all morals and the need to be good.
Let me remind you that you are addressing an audience largely composed of people who are atheists, and who therefore know for certain that you are bearing false witness.

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 84 of 181 (577192)
08-27-2010 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by dronestar
08-27-2010 12:22 PM


Re: Religion = Bonbons
dronester writes:
Everybody already uses critical thinking skills everyday, probably a hundred times in the grocery store alone. Whenever we choose a cereal based on ingredients or price we are using critical thinking.
Yet many people choose their cereal based on which athlete promotes it or what cartoon character is on the box. As I said, education can only refine the skill. It can't make people use the skill.
dronester writes:
Let me re-ask: if there is only a finite amount of time and money for studies and learning, which would you rather have children learn/memorize:?
a. skills in critical thinking
b. religious dogma
Dogma of any kind should be discouraged. (Political dogma is probably more dangerous than religious dogma.) Critical thinking should be encouraged.
What I've been saying from the start is that critical thinking isn't a magic solution to most problems because the people who cause the problems aren't using critical thinking in the first place. They'd have to be using critical thinking to take your advice and use critical thinking.
And again, lack of critical thinking doesn't necessarily make religion "bad" any more than it makes a choice of cereal bad.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by dronestar, posted 08-27-2010 12:22 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by dronestar, posted 08-27-2010 1:28 PM ringo has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 85 of 181 (577196)
08-27-2010 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
08-27-2010 1:05 PM


Re: Religion = Bonbons
ringo writes:
Yet many people choose their cereal based on which athlete promotes it or what cartoon character is on the box.
Yes, exactly, similar to many people uncritically choosing to follow all religious dogma. We agree, that's a bad thing, right?
ringo writes:
And again, lack of critical thinking doesn't necessarily make religion "bad" any more than it makes a choice of cereal bad.
Really?
So if you bought 120kg of Wheaties for $2, when the same store had a 160kg box for $1.50, that wouldn't be a bad choice?
So if you bought a sugar laden cereal of Count Chocula with marshmallows when you have severe diabetes, that wouldn't be a bad choice?
C'mon Ringo, are you pulling my leg?
Teaching critical thinking skills doesn't need to be magical. It is simple and it works by instilling a habit of critical thinking in very young children. Most important to my argument is it's additionally beneficial when religious dogma is not displacing/impeding its lessons. Please review the link I gave you.
(if your only argument is that some people, with religious mentalities like Buzz, couldn't learn critical thinking at their advanced ages, then we are in agreement)
Edited by dronester, : clarity
Edited by dronester, : more clarity
Edited by dronester, : added Buzz example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 08-27-2010 1:05 PM ringo has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 86 of 181 (577204)
08-27-2010 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by dronestar
08-27-2010 1:28 PM


Re: Religion = Bonbons
dronester writes:
ringo writes:
And again, lack of critical thinking doesn't necessarily make religion "bad" any more than it makes a choice of cereal bad.
Really?
So if you bought 120kg of Wheaties for $2, when the same store had a 160kg box for $1.50, that wouldn't be a bad choice?
So if you bought a sugar laden cereal of Count Chocula with marshmallows when you have severe diabetes, that wouldn't be a bad choice?
Now you're demonstrating a lack of critical thinking.
Read my post. Notice the word "necessarily"? "... lack of critical thinking doesn't necessarily make religion "bad" any more than it makes a choice of cereal bad."
You've deliberately contrived bad situations and ignored all of the possible benign situations and good situations. The same thing is being done with religion when people claim that it's "more bad than good".
I come back to my original question: How do you determine "more"? And especially, how do you determine "more" reliably when you tout critical thinking and then don't use it yourself?
Edited by ringo, : Spleling.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by dronestar, posted 08-27-2010 1:28 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 87 of 181 (577206)
08-27-2010 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by dronestar
08-27-2010 1:28 PM


Re: Religion = Bonbons
ringo writes:
And again, lack of critical thinking doesn't necessarily make religion "bad" any more than it makes a choice of cereal bad.
Really?
So if you bought 120kg of Wheaties for $2, when the same store had a 160kg box for $1.50, that wouldn't be a bad choice?
So if you bought a sugar laden cereal of Count Chocula with marshmallows when you have severe diabetes, that wouldn't be a bad choice?
C'mon Ringo, are you pulling my leg?
That wasn;t where Ringo was going with that, and you know it.
Ringo is entirely correct - irrationality is not necessarily harmful. If you and I hold identical beliefs except that I also believe that there is an invisible dragon in my garage, my set of beliefs is still no more or less harmful than yours.
And again, this isn't an outlandish example. If you and I hold identical beliefs, except that I also believe that God caused the Universe to exist, and that Jesus died for my sins, and that there is an afterlife, and that I should be good to people, then my beliefs are no more or less harmful than yours.
Irrational religious beliefs are only one potential source of harm. When resources are spent building churches and printing Bibles rather than feeding the hungry and providing shelter for the homeless, then we start to enter into the arena of harm (obviously that's simply the mildest example of harm; I think Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts are more than obvious enough to not require debate).
When an irrational belief is not causing harm, then it is the moral equivalent of color preference - or cereal preference, as Ringo was trying to point out. It's not "evil" to say "...and God caused all of that," even if it is irrational.
(if your only argument is that some people, with religious mentalities like Buzz, couldn't learn critical thinking at their advanced ages, then we are in agreement)
I'd be rather hesitant to use the word "couldn't." In fact, I'd wager that if we held an experiment where we gave both you and Buz the same critical thinking problem that was in no way related to science, morality, or religion (say a logic puzzle for example), there is a fair chance you'd both arrive at the same solution.
The ability to think critically is not so much the problem as the universal application of that skill - you can't have any "sacred cows."
Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

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 Message 85 by dronestar, posted 08-27-2010 1:28 PM dronestar has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 88 of 181 (577210)
08-27-2010 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
08-27-2010 2:22 PM


Re: Religion = Bonbons
Ringo and Rhavin,
Rhavin writes:
Ringo is entirely correct - irrationality is not necessarily harmful.
Ok, it seems I am pushing my argument too hard. But I think I am doing this because my word "displacement" is not being considered. Nevertheless, please allow me to backtrack a smidge . . .
Here again is my opening assertion:
dronester writes:
Thus, IMO, it is the displacement of critical thinking skills that make ALL religions ultimately harmFUL.
When Rhavin writes:
Rhavin writes:
If you and I hold identical beliefs except that I also believe that there is an invisible dragon in my garage, my set of beliefs is still no more or less harmful than yours.
If you say identical EXCEPT that you have a higher percentage of irrational beliefs, than by simple arithmetic, your irrational thought process will put you at higher RISK of doing something harmful. I get it, not "necessarily", but why would anyone choose to be at risk?
I think I had previously expressed the risk this way:
Dronester writes:
Or, let me ask it this way, in a world that has so much poverty, wars, disease, and bigotry, is there so much critical thinking in it that we can afford to eat mental bon-bons?
Another way to say this is: to solve the worlds problems we cannot afford the risk of using any less than "100%" of our critical thinking skills. To subtract our critical thinking capacity ANY percentage, would "necessarily" cause us to be at the very least, at risk.
Can we agree on this?
Rhavin writes:
I'd be rather hesitant to use the word "couldn't." In fact, I'd wager that if we held an experiment where we gave both you and Buz the same critical thinking problem that was in no way related to science, morality, or religion (say a logic puzzle for example), there is a fair chance you'd both arrive at the same solution.
Yes, I already agreed to this when you first stated most people use critical thinking in all aspects of their life, EXCEPT their religious beliefs.
I'm gone till monday. Gentlemen, have a good weekend.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 08-27-2010 2:22 PM ringo has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 181 (577214)
08-27-2010 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by dronestar
08-27-2010 4:10 PM


Re: Religion = Bonbons
dronestar writes:
Another way to say this is: to solve the worlds problems we cannot afford the risk of using any less than "100%" of our critical thinking skills. To subtract our critical thinking capacity ANY percentage, would "necessarily" cause us to be at the very least, at risk.
Can we agree on this?
Nope, can't agree to that.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 181 (577245)
08-27-2010 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Rahvin
08-27-2010 11:49 AM


Then why am I and other atheists (who make up a measurable proportion of the population nowadays) not murderous rampaging psychopathic rapists? Why don't I steal? Why do I speak up for oppressed minorities? Why do I try to help my neighbors when I'm able, and give to charities?
where do you think those maorals come from? theydo not come from the apes as one researcher claimed, they come from the Bible and have preceeded every secular nation on earth thus secularists were taught biblical principles andm orals even though it is not credited.
Traditional Japanese religion (Shinto, I beleive, but I could be wrong)
atheists always take the general and apply it to the specific. they do not go deeper or they would see that their arguments do not hold up:
SHINTO
Unlike most other religions, Shinto has no real founder, no written scriptures, no body of religious law, and only a very loosely-organized priesthood.
It does not have its own moral code
The desire for peace, which was suppressed during World War II, has been restored.
you have no argument. The nazis were not christian, nor did they act according to Christ's rules, instructions, commands, nor God's.
ref.: the beatitudes, 1 John, and the rest of the Bible.
The belt buckle of the Nazi military uniform was inscribed with the words (translated) "God with us.
this is just laughable that is like saying our father gave you a belt with those words on it and you are now a christian. ha ha ha.
you do not know how to apply your examples very well.
But oddly enough, after their highly immoral governments acted to remove religion, the people of Russia and China still did not revert to murderous rampaging psychopathic rapists and thieves
that wasn't because of atheistic rule but biblical morals and it hides the fact that stalin and his men murdered 14,000,000 of his own people. people were too afraid to stray because they might be next. fear does not say much for atheistic rule.
In the Scandinavian nations, atheists represent a significant portion of the population...yet they have some of the best social programs for caring for the sick and poor and elderly of all nations
yet whose system of morality are they employing? God's. as far as I know there is no atheistic document recording its own ancient moral code. all morals have 1 source--God. {but that doesn't make atheistism christian or a part of God}
Religion is not necessary for morality to exist.
no, but for morality to exist, God must. No God no morality for humans cannot conjure up what they have no concept of and any 'moral' rule they devise is no greater than the moral rule of another human. without God's standard, you cannot condemn Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and so on for there is nothing to say they are wrong.
With God's ultimate standard we know what is right or wrong and we can punish such people as mentioned because we do not subscribe to a humanstandard but a higher one that trumps all and is perfect.
read Ravi Zacharias' "the End of Reason' for a better presentation of this argument.
But Christianity can also be very bad, and it can never be as good for you as some of the alternatives.
the only way that christianity is bad for someone is if they do not follow the Holy Spirit's leading, Jesus's teachings and God's commands and rules. Then they are not practicing christianity but following their own desires and using the term christian for their own purposes in deceiving others.

This message is a reply to:
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