Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California

I know. What bothers me is before subbie "cleared it up" almost every word you said reminded me of those deceiving ads against gay marriage.I didn't know exactly those provisions that were cited. But at least I knew that priests and pastors can already deny marrying people based on their teachings. That's why we don't see Jewish couples getting married by catholic priests.I don't care what you think about the issue now. Just do me a favor and stop watching/reading those ads and spit them back out at us. Don't be like Darth Vader, man. The dark side ain't cool.

Because the reverse doesn't make any sense.Think about it this way. Doctors must treat the patient in the emergency room, correct? Does this mean that people must, therefore, go to the emergency room? Restaurants must accept every potential customer as long as the customer is reasonable, correct? Does this mean that I have to go into the restaurant?The reverse doesn't make any sense.Marriage is a business. If they want to participate in the business, they have to follow the rule of business. The exception doesn't make any sense to me. Nobody is saying the religion should go against its own beliefs. If they don't like marrying gay people, then don't participate in the business.If you're a doctor and don't like treating transexuals, then go find another profession. If you're a restaurant owner but you don't like to serve black people, go find something else to do. If you're a catholic pe... priest and you don't like to marry gay people, then go do your catholic priest thing and let others do the marrying part.It's really a simple concept. Marriage is a business. Hell, every pastor and every priest I know of charges money if a couple wants to get married by him. Why should they get a free ticket to discriminate when we don't allow other businesses to discriminate?

Oh, please. Just because they have a brain, a vocal chord, and a mouth to translate their bigotry into words doesn't mean their position has any merit.You're making the mistake of treating the human right issue as an opinion. In other words, you're obfuscating the issue by pretending like their bigotry has equal footing as my fight against bigotry.Let's go back to slicing people up to force a confession. Suppose I've captured a known rapist and murderer and I want to slice him up one little piece at a time until he confesses to everything. You step in to prevent me from doing that saying morally speaking what I want to do is morally repugnant. I then tell you that's a matter of opinion.See how that works? You're acting like those religious bigots have any legitimate reason to impose their hate on the rest of us.Human right is non-negotiable. It's not up for debate. And if you're willing to take a compromise in the issue of human right, then... you figure it out. I feel like I'm talking to a wall here, but let me try again.Nobody is talking about forcing these priests or pastors to perform secular marriage. But if they're going to perform a secular marriage and issue a secular, state sponsored marriage license then they ought to not discriminate.If they want to discriminate, they should get out of the business of issuing state marriage licenses and only perform religious marriage ceremonies. The religious marriage they perform will just not mean a goddamn thing to the state, that's all.But if they want to you to pay for them to perform and issue a secular marriage license, they have no excuse to discriminate.In other words, get out of the business if they want to discriminate. But nobody is forcing them to unwillingly perform religious marriage ceremony. But if they're going to perform state recognized marriage and issue marriage license then they cannot discriminate.I feel like a broken record, but it seems like you're having trouble understanding the difference between religious marriage and secular, state recognized marriage.

I understand what you mean. However, the profession you mentioned is very heavily regulated. Not only that, if you're a public attorney you have to counsel when called upon.Besides, I did mention before that restaurants have to serve you as long as you are reasonable. In other words, you have the right to be served at a restaurant within reason. Places like McDonalds have imposed the policy of not serving people without shoes or shirts, and I think that's pretty reasonable of them.In regard to the business of marriage, remember that we're talking about secular marriage. I have no problem with a pastor refusing to marry a couple if he thought the couple was committing fraud. Just like I have no problem with a lawyer refusing to represent a client if he thought the client was guilty as hell. But refusing to serve for no reason other than "I don't like them niggers" or "I don't like them fags" is clearly not fashionable.

I keep seeing this line of thought come up from time to time. And my response is so what? So far, everytime this issue is brought up in a referandum, the populous have always voted against allowing same sex marriage. Stop trying to make it sound like the majority of religious people are tolerant. I know that's not what you're saying, but that's what you're implying.Even jar's favorite denomination the episcopal church is about to explode into a bloody civil war over this issue. And it looks like the opposition has the support of the majority within the church.You can't tell me mainstream christianity is tolerant on this issue.

Woke up this morning and what did I hear? Predominantly black and latino counties in California are fighting to keep prop 8.At least white people have an excuse to be bigots. They've been bigots since god smiled on white people ages ago. But all these communities who have been subjected to ongoing prejudices have absolutely no excuse to turn around and discriminate others.Actually, I'm going to start openly support changing the constitution to fight anchor babies. If they want to play this game, I'll play with them. Let's crack down on illegals. Let's require everyone carry around their papers so that we can pull over all the ones who look like they might be illegal.

(1) You people have spent the last year trying to convince me there's no such thing as race.(2) I didn't say latinos and blacks. I said latino and black communities. In other words, if 70-80% of their members support something, I think it's safe to say their community supports it.

I'm ignorant, too, therefore I have an excuse to defy common sense and discriminate.With all the drug and human smugling, home invasions, should begin agressively seek out people who look like illegal immigrants and check for their papers. If they are indeed illegal immigrants, they should be immediately stripped of their rights and be sent back to Mexico. And we need to expell those anchor babies, too.If this issue ever comes up in a referandum in my state, I will vote to have those illegals captured, branded, and kicked out.If they want to use ignorance as an excuse to discriminate, then I'll play this same game as well. I'd be lying if I say I find it surprising, since I've known for a long time that those browns and blacks have double standards. On the one hand, they demand equality, but on the other they demand to be able to discriminate against others. They need to learn respect for other people, because they just lost me as their ally.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

I gave up political correctness a long time ago. I say we give them a taste of their own medicine. If they want to discriminate, we'll simply discriminate against them.I say the same thing should apply to christians as well. If they don't want muslims to build mosques, we should burn down their churches as well.Nothing is more effective in dealing with discrimination than to give them a taste of their own medicine.

No, they don't have any excuse at all since they themselves have been the subject of discrimination for a long long time now. At least it's been generations since the whities (especially the protestant males) have had to deal with discrimination bullshit. But we're talking about communities that have been outright discriminated against for generations.Just the other day, I was listening to NPR and I heard the most outrageous thing. They were interviewing a Polish man who was protesting against the judge's deicision. He said that he suffered under the communist regime and now when he came to America he couldn't find any freedom either. Um... the freedom to discriminate against other people? What a load of bollocks.I've had enough of this political correctness bullshit. I say we kick all those immigrants out and let us natural borns deal with our own problems. They escaped from authoritarian regimes to come here just so they could persecute others? What kind of bullshit logic is that?

Fine. I'm totally voting against them if the issue ever comes up in my state. If they don't come out holier than thou after what they've been through, then that tells me they're not worth the effort to communicate.I've said several times that I have my own demons to fight. I do have racist tendencies. It's written quite deeply into my subconscious. All I have to do is let go of the logical part of me that controls my racist tendencies and voila they've got another hick going against them. And since they don't seem to try too hard to overcome their prejudices, I don't see any reason why I should be better than them.I hope you realize I'm not just talking about gay rights. This is beyond that. And frankly, 70-80% of them have proven they've learned nothing from all the discrimination they've suffered. So, they can go ahead and eat their tacos and fried chicken all they want.As if the ultra-conservative hicks weren't enough. Now, we got 70-80% of the minorities to worry about as well.

I said natural born, I didn't say the original migrants. Beside, if you want to go that far back, then sure we'll go back to Europe and those "native" Americans could go back to Asia.Go ahead and defend those persecuted-turned-persecutor minorities all you want. I realize in a couple days my ratings will probably go down to 1. That's what happens in a world of political correctness when no matter how much bullshit you see you always have to talk nice to them. Hell, they could be voting by the masses to turn this country into their catholic theocratic haven and it would still be politically incorrect to call it bullshit.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm doing just fine. But since I have a brain, I can tell when people's logic are bullshit."I came from the old soviet union where people had no freedom. Now, I came to the US and I still have no freedom." This came from a polish man protesting against the judge's decision on the unconstitutionality of prop 8.Again, I have a brain. I don't need to be within the group that is discriminated against to see the bullshitness in that guy's words.

*shrug*Well, deep down in my subconscious I have racist tendencies. I am not and don't pretend to be some enlightened individual. And about the self-respect, I guess I don't have any. I'll give you a hint. I would have been much happier back in school to have learned that after the nazis surrendered every person who had ever had a nazi uniform on was put in concentration camps and gassed to death... or at least be fed to their own dogs.Because of our politically correct world, that son of a bitch pol pot never faced any real trial or consequence. And because of our politically correct world, genocidal campaigns are allowed to be rampant for months before anyone lifted a finger to stop them. And even then, most of those who participated in the mass rape, torture, and murder never faced any real consequence. Nowadays, it seems like it's better to be the bad guys because the good guys are too busy trying to be politically correct to get anything done against the bad guys.But more to the point. I've no respect for those that think they can discriminate against people and then expect the rest of us not to discriminate them. It's bullshit, and you know it. They want to discriminate against the gheys? Well, we'll just ship them back to mexico and they can discriminate their own gheys.Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

I've already pointed this out before. I didn't say latino and black people. I said latino and black communities. Not referring to their race. I'm referring to their communities.Are you going to deny the stats that 70-80% of them are anti gay? So, let's be politically correct and ignore the obvious prejudice coming from both these communities?But you're right, I won't say it into their faces. I will, however, vote every chance I get to have their rights taken away. Whoa whoa whoa there.You people have been making the politically correct statement that it's not the religion that does the hating. It's suppose to be the people.Now you're turning around and blame it on the religion to keep your words politically correct. I'm still focused on the blacks and latinos. It's just that I can't think of anything legal against them yet. So, I'll just aim for the most obvious targets... the illegals. Ever heard of baby steps? I'm sure we'll come up with something to deal with those guys by then. And island sounds nice about now. Ok, on a serious note. We've been trying to educate those christian bigots for centuries now. Nothing has changed. All they've done has been to change their target group they're going after, that's all.After the gheys, I'm sure they'll come up with another group to go after. May be it will be comedians that they will go after next time. See how funny you guys are in a cage sitting on top of your own filth.I'm beginning to think the only way to solve the problem rather than keep treating the symptoms is to let them face discrimination up close and personal. If they are against mosques in their community, then we'll simply not allow churches as well. If they don't want gay people to get married, we'll simply ban all divorces based on their logic.It's a really simple concept.