Stonehenge and ID

Scuse my ignorance, whats CSI?cheers,Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

TY------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

JP,Regarding this claim about ID not ULTIMATELY requiring God. I posted this elsewhere but it got skipped over.

quote:

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Originally posted by John Paul:

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joz:
And as we have pointed out ID does logicaly demand a supernatural ID`er...

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John Paul:
Logically, the IDer for life on Earth does NOT have to be supernatural.

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mark24:

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JP,
I think what Joz & Moose are getting at, is that if the ID that created life on earth isn't supernatural, then what created the IDer?

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John Paul:
That is irrelevant as to how (or why) life appeared here on Earth and then diversified. First things first. And first we should determine our own realm before venturing outside of it. Why? Because doing so may help us answer your question.

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mark24:
Could you present a scenario that would show the non-supernatural abiogenesis of any ID, please.

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John Paul:
I am focused on life on Earth. Once that is answered then I will move on. Did you see the movie "Mission to Mars"? Life on Earth could be the result of alien seeding, alien colonization, super intelligent 4th dimensional design for the 3rd dimension. The problem is the word 'supernatural' is a reletive word. Maybe what we deem 'supernatural' to another entity is perfectly natural. And maybe we attach that word to God just because of our ignorance. Just a thought.

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ID is NOT synonomous with supernatural forces (ie God).

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People are only exploring your position on ID. That your meaning of ID doesn’t infer God, is understood. However, in further exploring your position; If there is a natural ID, then the question who designed the IDer IS relevant. If you’re not going to get into an infinite sequence of aliens begat aliens, that is.Films like Mission To Mars explain origins of life, much as Panspermia does, it shifts the focus elsewhere, & ultimately fail to explain anything. The main question remains unanswered, how did life originate? (In this case to create more life). If life were created in a lab tomorrow, the origin of the creating intelligence, us, would not be explained. What’s the point of postulating ID if it doesn’t ultimately explain origins?OK, back to the plot; ID IS POSTULATED AS AN EXPLANATION OF LIFE ON EARTH. The position I wish to explore is the claim that ID doesn’t infer God. Dress God up as a 4th dimensional being if you wish, at the end of the day, life is IC, so life can’t be the ultimate origin of life. So it comes down to a God, that has no origin, & has existed forever, & to which IC doesn’t apply.So, I ask again, & clarify, for you to present a hypothetical scenario in which God is removed from an ID scenario, & solves the origins of all life, by abiogenesis. This is what not having God as part of ID ultimately means.YOU have found it relevant to deny that God is part of any ID scenario, but can you show it when describing ultimate origins of life with ID?Last (small) point, you clearly are NOT focussed on life on earth, you have mentioned Klingons, alien seeding, alien colonization, super intelligent 4th dimensional design for the 3rd dimension, most of which is in the same paragraph that you claim to be focussed on life on earth.In summary:Ultimately ID means supernatural, if life on earth means a non natural ID, fine, but what about those natural IDers?Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

JP,Since you're back............Regarding this claim about ID not ULTIMATELY requiring God. I posted this elsewhere but it got skipped over.

quote:

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Originally posted by mark24:

​

joz:
And as we have pointed out ID does logicaly demand a supernatural ID`er...

​

John Paul:
Logically, the IDer for life on Earth does NOT have to be supernatural.

​

mark24:

​

JP,
I think what Joz & Moose are getting at, is that if the ID that created life on earth isn't supernatural, then what created the IDer?

​

John Paul:
That is irrelevant as to how (or why) life appeared here on Earth and then diversified. First things first. And first we should determine our own realm before venturing outside of it. Why? Because doing so may help us answer your question.

​

mark24:
Could you present a scenario that would show the non-supernatural abiogenesis of any ID, please.

​

John Paul:
I am focused on life on Earth. Once that is answered then I will move on. Did you see the movie "Mission to Mars"? Life on Earth could be the result of alien seeding, alien colonization, super intelligent 4th dimensional design for the 3rd dimension. The problem is the word 'supernatural' is a reletive word. Maybe what we deem 'supernatural' to another entity is perfectly natural. And maybe we attach that word to God just because of our ignorance. Just a thought.

​

ID is NOT synonomous with supernatural forces (ie God).

​

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People are only exploring your position on ID. That your meaning of ID doesn’t infer God, is understood. However, in further exploring your position; If there is a natural ID, then the question who designed the IDer IS relevant. If you’re not going to get into an infinite sequence of aliens begat aliens, that is.Films like Mission To Mars explain origins of life, much as Panspermia does, it shifts the focus elsewhere, & ultimately fail to explain anything. The main question remains unanswered, how did life originate? (In this case to create more life). If life were created in a lab tomorrow, the origin of the creating intelligence, us, would not be explained. What’s the point of postulating ID if it doesn’t ultimately explain origins?OK, back to the plot; ID IS POSTULATED AS AN EXPLANATION OF LIFE ON EARTH. The position I wish to explore is the claim that ID doesn’t infer God. Dress God up as a 4th dimensional being if you wish, at the end of the day, life is IC, so life can’t be the ultimate origin of life. So it comes down to a God, that has no origin, & has existed forever, & to which IC doesn’t apply.So, I ask again, & clarify, for you to present a hypothetical scenario in which God is removed from an ID scenario, & solves the origins of all life, by abiogenesis. This is what not having God as part of ID ultimately means.YOU have found it relevant to deny that God is part of any ID scenario, but can you show it when describing ultimate origins of life with ID?Last (small) point, you clearly are NOT focussed on life on earth, you have mentioned Klingons, alien seeding, alien colonization, super intelligent 4th dimensional design for the 3rd dimension, most of which is in the same paragraph that you claim to be focussed on life on earth.In summary:Ultimately ID means supernatural, if life on earth means a non natural ID, fine, but what about those natural IDers?Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

quote:

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Originally posted by John Paul:
mark24:
Regarding this claim about ID not ULTIMATELY requiring God.

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John Paul:
This is a philosophical issue- one in which we may never get an answer. I don't deny God Created life on Earth, I just say that God isn't necessarily the only intelligent agent that could have done so. ID does not mention God, only ID critics do.

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Mark24:
What’s the point of postulating ID if it doesn’t ultimately explain origins?

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John Paul:
Because it does explain the obvious. Also, as I have posted, origins are of little import to understanding form, function and maintenance.

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Mark24:
So it comes down to a God, that has no origin, & has existed forever, & to which IC doesn’t apply.

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John Paul:
It is my understanding that God, by definition, is the un-Created Creator of the Universe. So your statement would be true.

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Mark24:
Last (small) point, you clearly are NOT focussed on life on earth, you have mentioned Klingons, alien seeding, alien colonization, super intelligent 4th dimensional design for the 3rd dimension, most of which is in the same paragraph that you claim to be focussed on life on earth.

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Mark24:
In summary:

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Ultimately ID means supernatural, if life on earth means a non natural ID, fine, but what about those natural IDers?

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John Paul:
Good question for philosophy 101.

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JP, this is reeeeeeeel simple. Either :1/ You think that there was natural abiogenesis somewhere,2/ Or there was supernatural ID creation to create the non supernatural ID, that created life on earth.So, which is it, 1/ or 2/ ?It's hardly deep philosophy,

quote:

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Originally posted by John Paul:

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John Paul:
I guess that is what happens when I try to answer questions for 5-year olds. All of the things you mentioned were possiblities of an intelligent agent that may have brought life to Earth.

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Thank you for your kind words, just answer the questions JP, I've made so EVEN a 5 year old can understand it.Nice to see you back on form.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

quote:

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Originally posted by joz:
You seem to be applying the filter to a case where DNA sprung up out of nowhere with no predecessors that isn`t what abiogenesis puts forward and you know it (and if you don`t you should before jumping to conclusions about its feasibility).....

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Secondly before the third step of the filter can be applied you need to show that CSI can only be designed and never arrive by a set of laws acting on a set of starting conditions....

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[This message has been edited by joz, 02-27-2002]

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I'm sure this has been asked before, but what result would you get in putting God through the filter?Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.