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Author Topic:   Is the bible authoritive and truly inspired?
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 271 of 386 (577379)
08-28-2010 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by purpledawn
08-27-2010 6:49 PM


Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
purpledawn wrote,
quote:
That doesn't show that the men were inspired by God and not writing of their own impulse. The writers saw a need and filled it. Remember the majority of Hebrews were illiterate, so the writers weren't writing for the masses to read. Manuscripts had to be read to the masses. Same for the NT.
So you think the writers of the Bible simply "saw a need and filled it"! What evidence can you provide that this is true, and it was not God inspiring these writers to present His salvation message to man through both the OT and NT writings?
I noticed you failed to provide my complete (3) quote,
quote:
(3) Because the same things written in the Acts 2 Bibles we have today have been happening to Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ for the last 2000 years. The Bibles we have today can be verified to be accurate based on manuscripts that date back to the time of Christ.
I was referring mainly to the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in 1947 and following which date back to 1st century AD which verify the messages of the OT scriptures. Most of the NT writings can be dated back to the 4th century AD, and present God's same salvation message as is found in the Bibles we have today.
Since God's salvation message that is written in the Acts 2 Bibles we have today, which can be verified by the 4th century manuscripts, have been happening to Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ until now, unbelievers may need more proof, but not Believers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2010 6:49 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 08-28-2010 1:59 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 276 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2010 3:11 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 288 by Theodoric, posted 08-29-2010 2:41 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 272 of 386 (577383)
08-28-2010 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by purpledawn
08-28-2010 11:26 AM


Re: Edited and Edited Back
Thanks, PD--that's something I didn't know, and an aspect I hadn't considered.
Kinda like King Tut's curse
Or Shakespeare's headstone: "Cursed be he who moves these bones."

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2010 11:26 AM purpledawn has not replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 273 of 386 (577384)
08-28-2010 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by John 10:10
08-26-2010 2:59 PM


Re: Lightbulb moment?
John, I first read the Bible (KJV) all the way through at the age of 10.
I read the blood-drenched OT with horror; I read the NT with some excitement, but when I compared what I read with what I saw in the lives and acts of the Christians around me, I walked out of the church. I've read it through several times again since, but I've never had the slightest urge to return.
I opened my present, but it was full of worms.

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by John 10:10, posted 08-26-2010 2:59 PM John 10:10 has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 274 of 386 (577385)
08-28-2010 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by John 10:10
08-28-2010 1:22 PM


Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
John 10:10 writes:
... unbelievers may need more proof, but not Believers.
It isn't about believers though. Believers don't need an authoritative and inspired book if they already have the Holy Spirit whispering directly in their ears. What's the book good for if it can't convince unbelievers?

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by John 10:10, posted 08-28-2010 1:22 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by John 10:10, posted 08-28-2010 8:30 PM ringo has replied
 Message 281 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2010 8:32 AM ringo has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 275 of 386 (577386)
08-28-2010 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by John 10:10
08-28-2010 12:30 PM


John Tries to Make Lemonade
John 10:10 writes:
Please show us how the Upanishads & the Suttas were wtitten by 40 different authors over 1500+ years that present present a consistent message from the start to the finish about God's salvation message to man?
Epic fail, John.
You are trying to take the piecemeal quality of the Bibles, the history that casts the most doubt on their divine inspiration, and create a claim that this amounts to proof that they are divinely inspired.
I admire your chutzpah, but not your critical textual reasoning.
I am much more impressed by the Buddhist scholars' ability to present texts from throughout history that demonstrate they still represent the Buddha's words.
If you could even demonstrate that the four Gospels were four eyewitness acounts, accurately reporting Christ's words, I'd be impressed; but since they often disagree...not so much.
Edited by Omnivorous, : subject/verb agreement...I'm mortified.

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by John 10:10, posted 08-28-2010 12:30 PM John 10:10 has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 276 of 386 (577403)
08-28-2010 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by John 10:10
08-28-2010 1:22 PM


Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
quote:
So you think the writers of the Bible simply "saw a need and filled it"! What evidence can you provide that this is true, and it was not God inspiring these writers to present His salvation message to man through both the OT and NT writings?
I didn't say simply. Finding a need and filling it isn't necessarily simple.
There were various salvation messages depending on the need of the people. They weren't always in need of saving from their enemies.
They were inspired by their beliefs in God and the religious needs of the people around them. Inspiration doesn't mean dictation. Inspiration is being influenced by what's around us or in our thoughts. Inspiration doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. Some scribes tried to make the texts agree with each other. They thought there was a need for agreement. The textual critics were inspired to correct the mistakes and changes made by the scribes. They saw a need and filled it. Some worked over 30 years to try and restore the Greek NT to the earliest known state. Some of the NT writings were done to combat Gnostic writings. Each thought they were doing what was needed at the time.
The point is that your comment in Message 263 doesn't do anything to show that they were inspired by God or worked on their own impulse.
John 10:10 writes:
(2) Because 40 different writers wrote 66 books of the Bible over 1500+ years presenting God's love and salvation message to man that has been working for New Testament Believers for 2000 years.
IMO, they were inspired and worked by their own impulse. A man writing about horses is inspired by horses. A man writing about a deity or religion is inspired by a deity or religion. Again inspiration is not dictation. To take on these writings tasks one has to want to.
If you feel that inspiration is dictation, then I disagree with you.
quote:
I noticed you failed to provide my complete (3) quote,
That's why the three dots were there, to let readers know there was more before the sentence I quoted and chose to respond to.
quote:
I was referring mainly to the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in 1947 and following which date back to 1st century AD which verify the messages of the OT scriptures. Most of the NT writings can be dated back to the 4th century AD, and present God's same salvation message as is found in the Bibles we have today.
That depends on what you consider God's message of salvation to be. (Specific verses please)
In one of the oldest Greek Manuscripts Luke 22:19 doesn't read the same as our current Bibles.
Early Manuscript
And taking bread, giving thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying "This is my body. But behold, the hand of the one who betrays me is with me at the table."
Current Bibles
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
The author of Luke doesn't approach Jesus' death as atonement for sin. In Luke's writing Jesus' death makes people realize their guilt before God and then they repent. Once they repent, then God forgives their sins. Luke 16:30

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by John 10:10, posted 08-28-2010 1:22 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by John 10:10, posted 08-28-2010 8:04 PM purpledawn has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 277 of 386 (577434)
08-28-2010 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by purpledawn
08-28-2010 3:11 PM


Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
quote:
That depends on what you consider God's message of salvation to be. (Specific verses please)
These will do in a nutshell,
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old ? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins ; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2010 3:11 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by purpledawn, posted 08-29-2010 8:03 AM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 278 of 386 (577442)
08-28-2010 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ringo
08-28-2010 1:59 PM


Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
quote:
It isn't about believers though. Believers don't need an authoritative and inspired book if they already have the Holy Spirit whispering directly in their ears. What's the book good for if it can't convince unbelievers?
John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine ; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
You will notice, the Holy Spirit guides us into the truth of who Jesus is by taking the words that Jesus spoke while on earth and disclosing them to us. God does not ask His children to do anything contrary to the principles God gave in His Word. That's why Believers need the Word. The Spirit leads us into how to carry out the spiritual principles God has revealed in His Word. That's why Believers need the Spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 08-28-2010 1:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by ringo, posted 08-28-2010 9:06 PM John 10:10 has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 279 of 386 (577449)
08-28-2010 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by John 10:10
08-28-2010 8:30 PM


Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
John 10:10 writes:
The Spirit leads us into how to carry out the spiritual principles God has revealed in His Word.
But I asked you: If the Spirit is guiding you on how to interpret the Word, what do you need the Word for at all? Why can't the Spirit tell you directly how to carry out God's spiritual principles? It seems pretty clear that some people are getting the wrong principles from the Word, so why not eliminate the middleman entirely?

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by John 10:10, posted 08-28-2010 8:30 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by John 10:10, posted 08-29-2010 6:33 PM ringo has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 280 of 386 (577490)
08-29-2010 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by John 10:10
08-28-2010 8:04 PM


God's Message of Salvation is Repentance
Basically repentance. I agree that the main point of Jesus' teaching were repentance. Right behavior vs wrong behavior. That was the main point of the Jewish teachings.
quote:
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:1-18 is not part of the earliest manuscripts. So it was either added or possibly removed. Since there are no actual originals textual critics can only make an educated guess.
According to textual critics, this passage is written in a very poetic style which is not found in the rest of the gospel and some of the most important vocabulary used in the poem isn't found in the rest of the gospel.
quote:
John 3:3 and Acts 2:38
These speak of repentance.
I agree that the message of repentance is still obvious in the NT. Even Buddha taught right behavior as did the OT.
There isn't anything that gives the Bible more authority than any other religion or religion-free belief. The authority given to the Bible is given by men.
Human suffering has inspired many through the ages to act and teach right behavior.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by John 10:10, posted 08-28-2010 8:04 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by John 10:10, posted 08-29-2010 6:38 PM purpledawn has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 281 of 386 (577495)
08-29-2010 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by ringo
08-28-2010 1:59 PM


Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
ringo writes:
It isn't about believers though. Believers don't need an authoritative and inspired book if they already have the Holy Spirit whispering directly in their ears. What's the book good for if it can't convince unbelievers?
The Holy Spirit never contradicts the written word. It/he inspires, enlightens, bears witness with our spirit and enlivens, always within the bounds of scripture. It is the spirit of Jehovah who inspired the writers and the one and same spirit of Jesus, son of Jehovah, the Biblical god. He/it is the multipresent member of the trinity which makes the three one and by which the believer is spiritually born children of God, i.e. one spirit effecting the family of Jehovah.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ringo, posted 08-28-2010 1:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 08-29-2010 10:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 286 by purpledawn, posted 08-29-2010 12:59 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 287 by ringo, posted 08-29-2010 1:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 282 of 386 (577500)
08-29-2010 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by John 10:10
08-28-2010 12:30 PM


Re: That's easy
John,
I never understood the argument "40 different authors...". How does this show that the Bible was inspired. Are you suggesting different authors over time could NOT, that it was too difficult, impossible to write a continuous theme? You do realize, many of the stories are copied twice, sometimes three times? You do realize Matthew nearly copied Mark word for word, while Luke copied Mark nearly 50%. Does that seem miraculous to you? You do realize there were hundreds of other books written on the same topic, but were discarded before the Bible was "assembled". Its not like there were 40 authors, over time who did not know each other and had no writing in front of them- yet managed to write a continuous story. Either they had the writing/stories passed along orally or had access to the writings themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by John 10:10, posted 08-28-2010 12:30 PM John 10:10 has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 283 of 386 (577507)
08-29-2010 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Buzsaw
08-29-2010 8:32 AM


Re: Source of Authority, Source of Inspiration
Buz writes:
The Holy Spirit never contradicts the written word.
And how do you test to see that it is the Holy Spirit and not just a great New Mexico Burrito?
Buz writes:
It is the spirit of Jehovah who inspired the writers and the one and same spirit of Jesus, son of Jehovah, the Biblical god.
And where is the evidence of that? Jesus is the son of a spelling error? How sad to be nothing more than the son of a typesetters error.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2010 8:32 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 284 of 386 (577512)
08-29-2010 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by jar
08-23-2010 2:07 PM


Source Of Inspiration
quote:
"Is the bible authoritative and truly inspired?"
If not, how can a truth seeker ever find encouragement or direction in life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by jar, posted 08-23-2010 2:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by jar, posted 08-29-2010 11:36 AM Phat has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 285 of 386 (577513)
08-29-2010 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Phat
08-29-2010 11:31 AM


Re: Source Of Inspiration
Phat writes:
If not, how can a truth seeker ever find encouragement or direction in life?
Huh?
Are you saying that the Bible (as if The Bible existed) is authoritative and truly inspired because you need it to be authoritative and truly inspired?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Phat, posted 08-29-2010 11:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 09-08-2010 10:10 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

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