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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: The Existence of Jesus Christ | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
It's nice to see that attitude. I am interested in this for the intellectual challenge myself. It nice to see someone who is not intimidated or contemptual of us 'non-believers'.
I suspect you will come away from these talks with some insights.If nothing else, you will at least understand the "non-believers" a bit more.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
I think the reason for that is that for the most part, the non-christians are doing this as an intellectual exercise and doesn't have the emotional involvement with it. I think you will find that many of the non-traditional theists, the agnostics and the atheists are ex-christians, and know the religion from the inside out. I learned a lot about early Christianity when looking at my Jewish roots, and found out how misreprentitive of the Jewish scriptures many of the evangalistic groups were. Consequently, when I discuss the scriptures, particularly the tanakh, you will see me using the Jewish interpretation and attitudes towards the various passages. I find that many of the non-jewish ex-christians or non-traditional hristians do the same thing.
You will find certain basic cultural assumptions about God, about what prophecy is, and what Satan/angels are make a big difference in the interpretation of the stories. For example, in the Jewish tradition, angels do not have free will. They can ONLY do what God wills them to, and can not 'fall' or revolt against god. Think of how that effects the relationship between God/Satan and man. Think of how that effects the interpetation of the story about Adam and Eve.. . and the story of Job. Judaism also doesn't have a hell. 'Ghenna', which is the closest that comes to hell, is more like that concept of purgatory, where a soul will be 'purified' for up to 1 year, and then either goes to 'the world to come', or faces extinction. Also, the afterlife is not reallyconsidered much in the Jewish religion, but it is more concerned about living the good life here (which is it's own reward). Think of how those attitudes distinguish it from either Christainity or Islam. Those cultural differences are some of the reasons that make me skeptical about the Jesus that is described in the gospels. There are just too many non-Jewish concepts being introduced to make me take them as historical.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Well, if you want to look at the fact that made the vast majority of Biblical scholars deciede that, we most certainly can look at the FACTS.
For example, Luke specificlaly says that he is taking previous sources. If you want to take the books one a time, we can. As far as I can see, the ones that CLAIM the books are written by eyewittneses are using bad history, and theology.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Your claim that the claims about authorship go back as far as the text themselves is incorrect. They assocation about the name came in the second century for , example. For example, the authorship of Mark being attributed from Mark comes through Papias, decades after Mark is alleged to have been written.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Do you have a source about that from other than the very bad appologist, J.P. Holding (aka, Robert Turkel)? The only claims to that either are from Holding, or people who refer to him.
In other words, show me a source from an actual scholar, not a librarian who makes LOTS of outragious claims.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
While there are some , usually evangelical scholars that claim that, others claim differently. For example
quote: and
quote: The much more comprehensive writing can be found on Peter Kirby'ssite, in specific Gospel of John
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Now, I would be interested if you found a secular source analysing this.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Because, frankly, a lot of the very religious sites are very biased.
Things I have found out about that. 1) It was in an entirely jewish section.. no evidence of Christianity.2) The translations that point to Jesus are controversional. It would be more accurate to say : it is the OPINION of a faithful Christian that it "has been dated in the first half of the first century A.D. (cir. A.D. 42/43)," According to my reference (C.K. Barret, The New Testament Background, SPCK 1987), this tomb is dated 50BCE - 50CE, which is quite different. The meanings of the words "Iesous iou" and "Iesous aloth" is disputed. Father Sukenik is a Christian believer - other scholars read these ossuaries as simply names - Jesus being a very common name in those times.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Only from a logical point of view. Just because something makes a claim doesn't mean that claim is true. Just because of work refers to a real place or event doesn't mean that the other parts of that work are phyisically true.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
One piece of evidence that is continually being brought up is the commments of tacitus in ANNALS.
One critizim I heard that I can not confirm is that hte first time this passage was mentioned was in the 14th Century. That would indicate it was a later interpolition. Is that true, or was this mentioned by some Christian appologist before, and someone is making an invalid claim (which I see all too often, on all sides of the arguement)
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
What I am trying to say is that people do not need to search the scriptures any more than they need to dig up bones or "shrouds" in order to have the faith necessary for everyday life. They can find the spark within them subjectively without needing objective proof.
That is one interpretation of the phrase 'The kingdom of God is within you'.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Did he? Do you have any evidence of this beyond his claims? Paul also admitted that he stretched the truth, and made some claims about being a student of Rabbi Gamiel, which is odd , since all his theology is in direct conflict with what Gameil would have taught.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
The writer of Luke/Acts, writing in the very late part of the first century, or the very early part in the second century , put words into Paul's mouth. How is this evidence of a historical Jesus?
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
And how do you know any of the passages in the New Testament actually tell the truth, rather than feed into an emotional response and need for comfort... how do you know you aren't fooling yourself.
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