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Author Topic:   Problems with evolution? Submit your questions.
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 211 of 752 (577663)
08-29-2010 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by dennis780
08-29-2010 11:20 PM


Scientific source supporting your claim?
Well, for instance, I performed an experiment in micobiology lab which I detailed in another thread; to summarize, I transformed His-negative Ames E. coli into His-positive E. coli by introducing a small amount of new information by means of random mutation. (The His-neg bacteria were themselves the descendants of His-positive bacteria which had been transformed by removing a small amount of information to disable histadine biosynthesis.)
The evidence for my claim is the obvious notion that since DNA contains information, mutations that introduce DNA will introduce new information.
No one is disputing genetic variation, but that mutation can, over time, result in new, useful genetic material, in turn leading to development of a new species (man-ape).
I don't know what a "man-ape" is, but new species arise from old ones when so many genetic changes accrue that the new species can no longer successfully breed with the old one. That's what it means to be a "species", after all; a community of individuals defined by the capacity for interbreeding.
Though you might be thinking that copying errors can result in useful material, it really doesn't appear that way.
It very much appears that way to me, because I observed it myself in the lab. Random mutations to Ames-strain E. coli produced reversion mutants with the highly useful ability to synthesize histidine on media that didn't contain it. I know that happened because I performed the experiment myself.
Physical examples of these would include dwarfism, albino eyes and skin colors, etc.
Sure. Other examples would be increased plasminogen activator inhibitor function, increased lipioprotein lipase, enhanced immune system function due to a mutation in G protein beta-3, and so on.
Don't get me wrong, it turns out that it's a lot easier to create a dramatic failure in a biological system than a dramatic improvement. But natural selection is a "ratchet" that pushes a species forward towards adaptation to environment, and selects against individuals who represent maladaption. Over time that ratchet results in significant, cumulative species change. Obviously.
Genetic mutation is a documented scientific FACT.
Yes, which is why I continue to wonder why you keep asking where new genetic information comes from, because I know you know where it comes from - genetic mutation.
Now, would you like me to respond to the source I found for you?
No, I'd like you to respond to me, since I'm the source. I've done the experiment that proves that mutation add new information. What questions would you like me to answer about it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by dennis780, posted 08-29-2010 11:20 PM dennis780 has not replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 212 of 752 (577667)
08-30-2010 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by dennis780
08-29-2010 10:00 PM


Hi, Dennis.
dennis780 writes:
Dr Adequate writes:
Please tell us how to measure the complexity of an organism.
I did, twice now. If you can't use the previous explanations to figure out why you are more complex than a single celled organism (though this is debatable as well in your case), then perhaps this is not the right forum for you. I really don't know how to explain it any better than that (or better than my quoted scientist).
You have a lot to learn about both science and interpersonal communication, son.
Your previous explanations for how you measure information or complexity of DNA were:
  1. "In teaspoons? I didn't know I was allowed to invent a measuring system. I like teaspoons.
    This depends on what you are asking. Humans have some 3 billion base pairs, and that are arranged into 24 distinct chomosomes, that arrange molecules ranging from 50 to 250 MBP (that would be million base pairs...I shortened it)." Message 133
    (a non-answer, or, at best, an indirect, unclear answer)
  2. "I already told you in my previous message. In base pairs, chromosomes, and teaspoons." Message 140
    (a very problematic answer, because I’m pretty sure the organism with the most base-pairs---and thus, consequently, the most information and complexity---is either an amoeba or a flowering plant)
  3. "...mentioned above. Loss mutations are found in the hundreds, that result in a non-functional genetic sequence, protein, or structure." Message 161
    (a non-answer)
  4. "My secret for measuring information is genetic complexity." Message 193
    (a new, equally-ambiguous buzzword to use in place of information)
  5. The length and diversity of amino acid sequences in nucleotides that provide the instructions for the production of protiens and instructions for the size, shape, and (inter)function of complex systems that are found in complex organisms and unique to specific species. This complexity is explained by the large amount of information found in DNA sequences. If you need further clarification, google it. Message 196
    (complete nonsense: amino acid sequences don’t have nucleotides in them, and don’t provide instructions for making proteins---rather, they kind of are proteins)
So, there are three possibilites:
  1. You didn’t really answer the question.
  2. You answered the question, but your answer was nonsensical.
  3. You answered the question, but your answer doesn’t support the conclusions you want to make.
This is not very promising for you, I’m afraid.
Edited by Bluejay, : entered the word "how" where it should have been.
Edited by Bluejay, : Formatting and links for quotes
Edited by Bluejay, : "and thus, consequently, the most information and complexity"

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by dennis780, posted 08-29-2010 10:00 PM dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Wounded King, posted 08-30-2010 2:47 AM Blue Jay has replied
 Message 218 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 5:35 AM Blue Jay has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 213 of 752 (577671)
08-30-2010 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by dennis780
08-29-2010 11:20 PM


Scientific source supporting your claim? No one is disputing genetic variation, but that mutation can, over time, result in new, useful genetic material, in turn leading to development of a new species (man-ape).
But this is trivial. Mutations include substitutions, insertions, deletions, and the fusing and fission of chromosomes.
These alone are sufficient to turn any given genome into any other; just as adding and removing and altering enough letter will turn any book into any other book.
Indeed, there are (literally) an infinite number of sequences of mutations which will get you from any genome to any other genome.
Though it is documented that genetic mutation has resulted in beneficial changes to a species (see previous messages with Dr. Adequate and myself), these examples of mutation were the result of genetic loss.
A claim which is not "documented", nor indeed well-defined.
And more than likely has. Physical examples of these would include dwarfism, albino eyes and skin colors, etc. How is this scientific evidence of new useful genetic information from genetic mutation?
Physical example would also include evidence of new useful genetic information from genetic mutations. Stop cherry-picking reality.
---
A quetion for you. You admit that antibiotic resistance can be transmitted through plasmids. Now, tell us, is there a negative quantity of DNA contained in these plasmids? Does the gain of a plasmid constitute a "genetic loss" --- or a genetic gain?
So when the resistance originally arises by mutation, what is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by dennis780, posted 08-29-2010 11:20 PM dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 5:53 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 214 of 752 (577682)
08-30-2010 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Blue Jay
08-30-2010 12:05 AM


Shocking lack of amino acids in DNA
amino acid sequences in nucleotides
What is it with creationists/IDists and this nonsense. This is something like the third one we have had turning up here talking about amino acids in DNA. Is there some sort of handbook about how to show you know nothing about genetics/molecular biology that they are all following?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Blue Jay, posted 08-30-2010 12:05 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by bluegenes, posted 08-30-2010 6:24 AM Wounded King has seen this message but not replied
 Message 216 by Blue Jay, posted 08-30-2010 10:04 AM Wounded King has seen this message but not replied
 Message 220 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 5:58 AM Wounded King has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 215 of 752 (577706)
08-30-2010 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Wounded King
08-30-2010 2:47 AM


Re: Shocking lack of amino acids in DNA
WK writes:
Dennis writes:
amino acid sequences in nucleotides
What is it with creationists/IDists and this nonsense. This is something like the third one we have had turning up here talking about amino acids in DNA. Is there some sort of handbook about how to show you know nothing about genetics/molecular biology that they are all following?
A quick search for "amino acid sequences in neucleotides" shows that our Dennis has got a first there, and could start an interesting meme.
However, for your phrase "amino acids in DNA", here's a wonderful source that will revolutionise your view of what you see in the lab.
The Divine Secrets.
Phrase highlighted several paragraphs down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Wounded King, posted 08-30-2010 2:47 AM Wounded King has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Theodoric, posted 08-30-2010 10:33 AM bluegenes has not replied
 Message 221 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 6:14 AM bluegenes has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 216 of 752 (577760)
08-30-2010 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Wounded King
08-30-2010 2:47 AM


Re: Shocking lack of amino acids in DNA
Hi, Wounded King.
I have to say, I might be changing my mind about this whole ridicule thing (Phil Plait - Don't be a dick) now.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Wounded King, posted 08-30-2010 2:47 AM Wounded King has seen this message but not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 217 of 752 (577768)
08-30-2010 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by bluegenes
08-30-2010 6:24 AM


Re: Shocking lack of amino acids in DNA
The Divine Secrets.
Phrase highlighted several paragraphs down.
Didn't this nutball(or someone like her) post here not too long ago? I have a vague memory of a poster that was offering to show us(in her self published book for $29.99) the true secrets of how DNA had a secret code or something like that.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by bluegenes, posted 08-30-2010 6:24 AM bluegenes has not replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4776 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 218 of 752 (577928)
08-31-2010 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Blue Jay
08-30-2010 12:05 AM


quote:
Your previous explanations for how you measure information or complexity of DNA were:
Nucleotides. Geez. Everyone in here is so touchy. Wheres the sense of humour?
quote:
You have a lot to learn about both science and interpersonal communication, son.
Unless you are my dad, I doubt I'll be taking interpersonal skills from you, and don't call me son, dad.
quote:
a very problematic answer, because I’m pretty sure the organism with the most base-pairs
NOT only base pairs. You forgot teaspoons. And as I said in a previous post, I have no idea which organisms are the most complex, as I haven't done any research into it, but it's not beyond the realm of possiblity that mammals are not the most complex. Physical appearance has no play on genetic information.
quote:
So, there are three possibilites:
4. I have no idea who you are, but you have offered no scientific opinion whatsoever. It appears you have come to school me on proper treatment of others...so let me try this:
if you have something to add, I'm interested. If not, goodbye. That was pretty nice, hey?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Blue Jay, posted 08-30-2010 12:05 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Blue Jay, posted 08-31-2010 9:01 PM dennis780 has replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4776 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 219 of 752 (577931)
08-31-2010 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Dr Adequate
08-30-2010 12:45 AM


quote:
These alone are sufficient to turn any given genome into any other; just as adding and removing and altering enough letter will turn any book into any other book.
So, you are saying that if random letters are changed in a book to any random letters, eventually, you will have a completely new book with a coherant message?
quote:
A claim which is not "documented", nor indeed well-defined.
If you want examples, just ask. Organisms such as the wingless beetle living on an island, eyeless fish living in caves, and horses that no longer have split hooves are prime examples of natural selection due to genetic loss. Calling me a liar before I have a chance to offer examples is silly (I can go get the resources for these examples if you like, as well as others).
quote:
Physical example would also include evidence of new useful genetic information from genetic mutations. Stop cherry-picking reality.
But it's so easy to find examples of genetic loss. I'd really have to work to find examples of genetic gain. I may even have to resort to antibiotic resistance, and horizontal gene transfer.
quote:
You admit that antibiotic resistance can be transmitted through plasmids
It would be silly for me to assume otherwise, since this was documented in the Nylonese and E. Coli experiments...
quote:
Does the gain of a plasmid constitute a "genetic loss" --- or a genetic gain?
Genetic gain. Continue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-30-2010 12:45 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-31-2010 6:31 AM dennis780 has replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4776 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 220 of 752 (577932)
08-31-2010 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Wounded King
08-30-2010 2:47 AM


Re: Shocking lack of amino acids in DNA
quote:
What is it with creationists/IDists and this nonsense. This is something like the third one we have had turning up here talking about amino acids in DNA.
You nincompoop. Did I say there are acids in nucleotides? No. I said the sequences are in the nucleotides. Which they are. Nucleotide arrangements code for amino acids. Were you adopted?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Wounded King, posted 08-30-2010 2:47 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Wounded King, posted 09-01-2010 5:00 AM dennis780 has replied
 Message 258 by Theodoric, posted 09-01-2010 11:05 AM dennis780 has replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4776 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 221 of 752 (577934)
08-31-2010 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by bluegenes
08-30-2010 6:24 AM


Re: Shocking lack of amino acids in DNA
quote:
Dennis has got a first there, and could start an interesting meme.
Thats funny. Cause I just searched this:
"Evolution facts are found" in google...and got this:
No results found for "Evolution facts are found".
This is because if you put quotes on, google will only search for websites with that exact phrase. Just because I'm an ID, doesn't mean I don't know how google works. At least your search found one result.
ID =1
Evo =0
That divine link brings you to some wierd hebrew-DNA site. I have no idea what this is for...I read it, but I have no reason to accept any of that as fact, since I don't speak hebrew, and don't follow conspiracy theories...partly why I don't accept evolution. BAM.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by bluegenes, posted 08-30-2010 6:24 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Wounded King, posted 08-31-2010 6:40 AM dennis780 has not replied
 Message 224 by Huntard, posted 08-31-2010 6:52 AM dennis780 has not replied
 Message 225 by bluegenes, posted 08-31-2010 7:46 AM dennis780 has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 222 of 752 (577937)
08-31-2010 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by dennis780
08-31-2010 5:53 AM


So, you are saying that if random letters are changed in a book to any random letters, eventually, you will have a completely new book with a coherant message?
Although this is obviously true, that's not actually what I was saying. Read it again.
If you want examples, just ask. Organisms such as the wingless beetle living on an island, eyeless fish living in caves, and horses that no longer have split hooves are prime examples of natural selection due to genetic loss. Calling me a liar before I have a chance to offer examples is silly (I can go get the resources for these examples if you like, as well as others).
You seemed to be making a general assertion --- that beneficial mutations were always associated with genetic loss. If you only claim that this is sometimes the case, then this may well be true --- though we would have to await your definition of "genetic loss".
P.S: What's this about horses and split hooves?
But it's so easy to find examples of genetic loss. I'd really have to work to find examples of genetic gain.
Yeah, being right sometimes involves work.
Genetic gain. Continue.
I did continue. I asked --- if gaining these genes through lateral gene transfer is "genetic gain", is it not also "genetic gain" when they originally arise through mutation?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 5:53 AM dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 1:13 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 223 of 752 (577940)
08-31-2010 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by dennis780
08-31-2010 6:14 AM


Re: Shocking lack of amino acids in DNA
What was your point exactly? That you can produce a badly constructed google search? Or that you can't talk about molecular biology coherently?
The one result was from what you yourself posted, I hardly see that as being a result for ID. I could make a cross board spam attack putting "Evolution facts are found" all over the internet, would that suddenly mean evolutionary theory was winning?
Are you standing by the idea that there are amino acids in DNA/nucleotides? Or would you agree that what you wrote was at best badly phrased. Persumably what you meant was the amino acid sequences coded for by particular sequences of nucleotides.
TTFN,
WK
P.S. Do you use 'BAM' to denote when you have said something particularly stupidly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 6:14 AM dennis780 has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 224 of 752 (577942)
08-31-2010 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by dennis780
08-31-2010 6:14 AM


Re: Shocking lack of amino acids in DNA
dennis780 writes:
quote:
Dennis has got a first there, and could start an interesting meme.
Thats funny. Cause I just searched this:
"Evolution facts are found" in google...and got this:
No results found for "Evolution facts are found".
This is because if you put quotes on, google will only search for websites with that exact phrase. Just because I'm an ID, doesn't mean I don't know how google works. At least your search found one result.
ID =1
Evo =0
Well, when I search for "evolution is a fact", I get 4,920,000 hits. When I look for "ID is a fact", I get 633,000 hits. Guess you got some while to go. Or you could realise that this is a bogus argument.
and don't follow conspiracy theories...partly why I don't accept evolution. BAM.
So, you follow the conspiracy theory that evolution is a conspiracy? BAM BAM. Or something...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 6:14 AM dennis780 has not replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 225 of 752 (577952)
08-31-2010 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by dennis780
08-31-2010 6:14 AM


Shocking lack of amino acids in DNA + shocking maths.
Try this for a good search:
"22 year old experiment", equalling 1 million years of human life, and ONE genetic mutation has occurred."
Then try this, and click on the first result.
"600 does not equal ONE!"
You should now be on my post Message 201, which you avoided replying to.
Do you still think that 600 = ONE?
When you've answered, I'll show you plenty of evidence for new information and complexity, which seems to be what you're looking for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 6:14 AM dennis780 has not replied

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