Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,485 Year: 3,742/9,624 Month: 613/974 Week: 226/276 Day: 2/64 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The End of Evolution By Means of Natural Selection
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 820 of 851 (577809)
08-30-2010 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 812 by Bolder-dash
08-28-2010 9:52 PM


Re: Zhang and Saier
So, according to you, epigenetics originated (significantly or partially?) through random mutations and natural selection.
From the tree of life we know that histones and DNA methylases had to evolve at some point before epigenetics could happen in the eukaryote branch.
Likewise, endosymbiosis, if it is even a valid concept, was formed through RM and NS, among other things.
Again, looking at the tree of life we know that chloroplasts and mitochondria had to evolve during eukaryote evolution. All of the evidence indicates that these structures are derived from the host cell engulfing another cell. Evolution through RM+NS resulted in a relationship that benefitted both the intracellular parasite and the host. We can find the same relationships between macroscopic species as well such as flowering plants and their pollinators, ants and aphids, etc. Evolution favors changes that benefit two different species at once.
You are trying to make the argument that RM and NS are not the only mechanisms of the modern evolutionary theory (which I can understand why you are trying to make this escape hatch, because of the difficulties for explaining things by such an unguided process), but isn't it true, that you have nothing else to start with other than those two originators?
We have all of the different factors that influence how DNA is changed and how the environment shapes the genome of a species from one generation to the next. This can and does include neutral drift and a few examples of non-random mutations. What we don't observe is supernatural deities causing changes in DNA or culling a species based on a genotype.
I think, once again, you are trying to run from your own theory, by creating a category of "other mechanisms" (preferably as vague and as flexible as possible), when in truth ANY other origin for a mechanism runs completely contrary to your theory. So we are back to the beginning, your theory ONLY has RM and NS as a base.
I think you have things a bit backwards. We have observations that the theory must incorporate.
To use an analogy, it is often said that water always flows downhill. This is true, with a few exceptions. For example, in a siphon water can flow uphill for a short stretch. Does this violate the theory that water always flows downhill? If you want to be a stickler, yes it does. However, the general theory works in almost all situations and the exceptions have known explanations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-28-2010 9:52 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 825 of 851 (580316)
09-08-2010 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 823 by barbara
09-08-2010 3:43 PM


Re: Natural Selection is misleading to the general public
This is the problem for the general public to fully understand science because science is always implying direction when they explain how cells cooperate, cell signaling, DNA processes, bacteria behavior, species interaction, organization factors, and on and on. What bothers me is that when you read many of the scientific discoveries is that the entire paper is written in details that indicates direction explaining the entire process.
When the weather man states that the wind is blowing in a specific direction do you take this to mean that an intelligent force is directing it? Do you take this to mean that wind has a goal that it is blowing towards?
Also, of the things you mention above none are natural selection.
When we say that natural selection is undirected we mean that natural selection does not have a specific goal in mind and then shapes creatures towards that goal. This is why we see more than one type of wing, more than one type of eye, etc. There are many solutions to a problem, and natural selection finds these solutions blindly. Natural selection does not see structure. It sees fitness. Natural selection is equally blind when it comes to DNA sequence.
I see life, from bacteria and all the way up the food chain are all driven by the will to survive and is obviously the directed part.
Of course, all of the organisms through time that lacked the will to survive left no offspring so it is kind of expected, is it not?
Also, if this will to survive is directed then why do we have so many different species with so many different adaptations?
The mechanism for RM and NS is not yet fully understood especially when microbes have mostly been ignored and excluded when describing the process of evolution in relationship that we are a community of many beings of life in one body.
What makes you think that RM and NS are not fully understood? Things can be tough to understand for very specific adaptations, but the overall mechanisms are very well understood IMHO. Also, interspecies communication and cooperation is a very active field in microbiology as it relates to such areas as oral and gastrointestinal biofilms.
Making the assumption of what bacteria can and cannot do that is the foundation of which the current theory of evolution is based on is proving to be more incorrect everyday.
I don't think this at all. We observe what bacteria do and don't do, and then draw conclusions from that. What else are we supposed to do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by barbara, posted 09-08-2010 3:43 PM barbara has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024