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Author Topic:   Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 451 of 477 (577958)
08-31-2010 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 442 by hERICtic
07-06-2010 2:19 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
quote:
Im sorry...but I've been debating for quite a few years. Its not that one "sees' it differently, its one twisting scripture bc they cannot accept it for what it states. It clearly states the following:

1) Among the captives, if you see a woman take her. Notice there isnt a choice involved.
2) She is to become the captors wife. Notice she does not have a choice.
3) After she is a wife, let her mourn for a month. Then have sex with her. Notice a choice is still not offered.
4) The very last verse states she was under compulsion. This means forced.


debating for a few years? How is it then that you are so wrong? Step 2 is completely wrong, since the man is obligated to WAIT one month before he can marry her. HE also has no choice in this.

quote:
Which is the point. There is one god today according to Christianity. Who loves all mankind. Yet according to the OT, and your words, that isnt the case.

Find me any verse in the Bible that says that God does not love those who are not saved. Then, when you can't, I'll find you some that say he loves EVERYONE, no matter what. If you honestly believe that Jews are all that matters to God, then you are misinformed.

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1st John 2:2

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (you'll notice it does not say, for God so loved the Jews).

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8

quote:
to help and/or solve problems

He did, and still does. Generally, you have to ask for help. My friend Hugh was in a quadding accident. Doctors gave him a 1% chance of living. He survived. Doctors told his wife and I that he would be a vegetable. He works for a major oil company as a power engineer today. He's also a christian now. He wasn't saved before.

quote:
Why? Bc its man doing the actions, attributing them to their god.

Yes. God works through his people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by hERICtic, posted 07-06-2010 2:19 PM hERICtic has not yet responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 452 of 477 (578016)
08-31-2010 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by dennis780
08-31-2010 7:12 AM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
dennis780 writes:

"God, I pray that you would be with Phage, and that his first child will be healthy."

The bad version of this would be?

Not all prayers are insulting. In fact, it doesn't depend so much on what the prayer is but rather how it is perceived by the person potentially offended. Some people might appreciate it simply for the sentiment, but others might not appreciate the sentiment itself or misinterpret your meaning.

Lets see how someone might take your example prayer wrong:

"I pray that you would be with Phage" Why does your God need to be with me? Are you suggesting that I cannot take care of myself, or that some ill will befall me without divine protection? Considering your god is supposed to be everywhere anyway this just seems like asking for special treatment; why am I less capable of operating without special supervision? Finally, if you look in the Bible people who are close with God are not assured a good life but seem disproportionately inclined toward hard and even short lives. Look at Job for example; are you wishing I am tight with God like that?

"and that his first child will be healthy." Why just my first child? Do you want my subsequent children to be ill, or do you just not care about them? Wishing all my children to be healthy wouldn't have been any more difficult, so what exactly are you getting at? Do you think I am incapable of looking after the health of my own children without the help of your god? Or do you simply think your god should only help my first child and ignore the rest?

dennis780 writes:

Of course. Many people are offended by this. My uncle almost slapped the white off me when I told him I was praying for him. But some people find it offensive to drive cars, since they are a greenhouse contributor. Does this mean everyone MUST stop driving now, or that in any way driving is bad?

Not at all. I firmly believe that being insulting must be protected through freedom of speech and expression, and that such freedoms are vital to a free society. Also, the quality of being insulting to a particular person has no particular bearing on the value or ethics of that behavior since practically anything you can do will be insulting to someone. However, you should realize that being insulting can have detrimental effects on your relationships between people.

Even if you mean well in praying for someone you can still damage your relationship with that person by telling them. For example, your uncle obviously didn't appreciate your prayers. But if you actually believe praying works in anything other than a placebo effect, why would you tell him? Is it your ego that requires you pat yourself on the back for your piety? Does that even make sense considering you essentially asked someone else (who probably doesn't exist) to help him out in undefinable and undetectable ways, rather than simply doing something helpful yourself?

So tell me this: When you started praying for your uncle, did you think he would respond positively to knowing you were doing so rather than neutrally or negatively? After you knew he didn't respond positively did you continue praying for him, and/or did you later tell him again about your prayers? Why, and what does this indicate about your motives?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 7:12 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 11:00 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

dennis780
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 453 of 477 (578156)
08-31-2010 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by Phage0070
08-31-2010 2:04 PM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
quote:
but others might not appreciate the sentiment itself or misinterpret your meaning.

I don't argue this. Though, even if someone is offended by it, does it mean that christians are not to pray for this person? The bible commands his people to love everyone, even love your enemies. I can see why people do not like it. I have friends who argue that if God knows everything, future and past, then their life is predetermined, and they don't like it. Which is a valid arguement, that can be debated to some extent.

quote:
Why does your God need to be with me?

If christianity is true, then God is everywhere, including with you now. The prayer is intended to show God that you are thinking about someone else, and that you hope for good things in their life.

quote:
Are you suggesting that I cannot take care of myself

A life not God centered is not directed (again, if christianity is true). I know for a fact that I cannot take care of myself. In this physical world, perhaps, but I know there is nothing I can do here that will get me into heaven. I have to follow Gods plan for my life, and believe that Jesus died for my sins. In short, no.

quote:
less capable of operating without special supervision?

Again, if Chrisitianity is accurate, you are always being supervised.

quote:
However, you should realize that being insulting can have detrimental effects on your relationships between people.

You have a solid point. I'll concede that. I have no doubt that my life could possibly involve more people in my life if I were more accepting of social activities (that I consider unacceptable now, such as drinking, and going to the bar). I could easily argue that I would have non-christian friends (I do have some now, but more than likely more), and christian, since most christians are taught to accept people dispite their beliefs.

However, I think that christian or not, no one should give up their moral compass to be a more accepted member of society. The boundaries for this are different for everyone, but it's important to keep your morals intact. Those who don't accept you, probably shouldn't be around you anyways.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Phage0070, posted 08-31-2010 2:04 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by bluescat48, posted 08-31-2010 11:26 PM dennis780 has responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2262 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


(1)
Message 454 of 477 (578160)
08-31-2010 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by dennis780
08-31-2010 11:00 PM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
If christianity is true, then God is everywhere, including with you now. The prayer is intended to show God that you are thinking about someone else, and that you hope for good things in their life.

That is fine until I ask them to stop. If they do they have done their mission, if they don't they are not affording me my beliefs.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 11:00 PM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 11:42 PM bluescat48 has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 455 of 477 (578163)
08-31-2010 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by dennis780
08-31-2010 7:44 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Jesus H Christ, do you like playing dumb?

dennis writes:

quote:
The Bible has god commanding the Hebrews to invade a land, kill all the men and TAKE the women.

I'm not sure where we are in the Bible. Which book and chapter are we talking about?

Stop playing dumb.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+6&vers...

quote:
20 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2031;...

quote:
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Do you want to keep playing dumb? Do you want me to keep quoting more passages?

there is no mention of FORCED sex.

Do you play dumb on purpose or are you this ignorant of your own bible? Why do you think they only spared the virgins but killed everyone else, including little boys? Do you honestly think they spared the virgins so the those virgins could wash the dishes only?

However, in Genesis 34:1-7, a rape does occur. A man named Shechem rapes Dinah, the daughter of Leah. And in chapter 7:

"And the sons of Jacob came in from the field when they heard it; and the men were grieved and very angry, because he had done a disgraceful thing in Israel by lying with Jacobs daughter, a thing that ought not to be done."

This verse clearly says that rape is disgraceful in Israel, and that the brothers and father of Dinah were upset. Shechum asks for Dinahs hand in marriage, and Jacob says no, because he raped her. This shows that it was not socially acceptable to rape. Rules of war would be somewhat different.


Picking and choosing what you want to hear?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut.%2021;De...

quote:
10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Neh.%2013;Deu...

quote:
23 Moreover, in those days I saw men of Judah who had married women from Ashdod, Ammon and Moab. 24 Half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod or the language of one of the other peoples, and did not know how to speak the language of Judah. 25 I rebuked them and called curses down on them. I beat some of the men and pulled out their hair. I made them take an oath in God's name and said: "You are not to give your daughters in marriage to their sons, nor are you to take their daughters in marriage for your sons or for yourselves. 26 Was it not because of marriages like these that Solomon king of Israel sinned? Among the many nations there was no king like him. He was loved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel, but even he was led into sin by foreign women. 27 Must we hear now that you too are doing all this terrible wickedness and are being unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women?"

And speaking of rape...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut.%2022;De...

quote:
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

I'm curious as to how long you can keep up this game of playing dumb. Do you want me to quote more passages?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 7:44 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 12:11 AM Taz has not yet responded
 Message 459 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 12:45 AM Taz has responded

dennis780
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 456 of 477 (578164)
08-31-2010 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Tram law
08-23-2010 2:04 PM


quote:
Others believe that all true believers will be taken to heaven as is.

They are wrong.

“Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.” 1 Corinthians 15:51

"But we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as his is" 1st John 3:2

The Bible says that when Jesus returns we shall be like him, and that we shall be changed.

quote:
So if people can be taken to heaven with their physical bodies

But we won't.

quote:
And doesn't that mean that beside Jesus and Elijah

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

Elijah did not accend into Gods thrown. In 2 Kings 2:11 :

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

This passage is often mis interpreted to show that Elijah went into heaven in an earthly body, but this is not the case. If you read other parts of 2 Kings, as well as 1 Kings, Elijah had a habit of being taken away by God, only to re-appear elsewhere. This is because many people wanted to kill Elijah.

"10 As the LORD thy God liveth, there is no nation or kingdom, whither my lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not there; he took an oath of the kingdom and nation, that they found thee not. 11 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here. 12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth."
1 Kings 18:10-12

Elijah's enemies often went to towns after reported 'Elisha sightings' (verse 10, no nation or kindom had favour in Elijah, and when they went there, they swore that he was gone). Though is would have appeared that Elijah was taken to heaven in 2 Kings, this actually is not the case. God frequently moved Elijah from city to city until he 'wore out his welcome' so to speak.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Tram law, posted 08-23-2010 2:04 PM Tram law has not yet responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 457 of 477 (578165)
08-31-2010 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by bluescat48
08-31-2010 11:26 PM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
quote:
That is fine until I ask them to stop.

Some may, some may not. Though it is important to love and respect all of Gods people, religious or not, it is far more important to save as many people as possible. Christians don't take it to the extent that we are knocking at your door at dinner time (like the mormons and JW's), but we still have an obligation to God to share his word as often as possible.

If I asked you to stop driving, would you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by bluescat48, posted 08-31-2010 11:26 PM bluescat48 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by bluescat48, posted 09-01-2010 12:48 AM dennis780 has responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 458 of 477 (578168)
09-01-2010 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by Taz
08-31-2010 11:37 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
quote:
Stop playing dumb.

Since I haven't been in this thread for some time, I think I was asking a valid question, since different stories require different points, and to argue effectively, I need to know where we are reading from. Shut it.

quote:
Do you want to keep playing dumb? Do you want me to keep quoting more passages?

I love you. God says to love your enemies.

"But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
Numbers 31:14-18

This is another example of armies killing the women and children. This, as well as the Jericho story can be explained readily. Before Christ, everything had physical requirements. Gods people paid for their sins by sacrificing a clean animal to God. Men were required to be physically circumsized, etc.

The people that were killed were not saved, and did not pay for their sins, and under the covenant with Abram (or Abraham), God delivered the land to his decendants.

Some 500 years after the flood, nations that descended from Shem, Ham and Japheth had turned from the true God and made their own ‘gods’ – idols of wood and stone – with elaborate systems of worship of their own devising, often involving human sacrifice.

These people did not have favour in Gods eyes. Virgins could be cleansed, since they had not laid with a man who was not saved. The Bible says that a child is born with the sins of his/her father in Romans 8, and thus the children would have been born into sin (this is also the reason Jesus did not have an earthly father).

The Christian God is a loving, but very strict one. This is evident in the Soddom and Gommorah, the flood, and in the end times stories, that everyone was destroyed in. The people that were killed did not believe in God.

So I suppose to answer your question, the virgins were kept not to be raped, but to become members of Gods people (though the Bible does not say whether they were raped or not, this action would be contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, and the Ten Commmandments, that say to love your neighbor as yourself). The story of Jacobs daughter being raped also implies, that since Jacob and his sons were angry about the rape, it was not socially acceptable to rape, especially within Gods tribes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Taz, posted 08-31-2010 11:37 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 459 of 477 (578170)
09-01-2010 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by Taz
08-31-2010 11:37 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
IGNORE PREVIOUS RESPONSE, I ACCIDENTALLY HIT SEND.

quote:
Stop playing dumb.

Since I haven't been in this thread for some time, I think I was asking a valid question, since different stories require different points, and to argue effectively, I need to know where we are reading from. Shut it.

quote:
Do you want to keep playing dumb? Do you want me to keep quoting more passages?

I love you. God says to love your enemies.

"But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
Numbers 31:14-18

This is another example of armies killing the women and children. This, as well as the Jericho story can be explained readily. Before Christ, everything had physical requirements. Gods people paid for their sins by sacrificing a clean animal to God. Men were required to be physically circumsized, etc.

The people that were killed were not saved, and did not pay for their sins, and under the covenant with Abram (or Abraham), God delivered the land to his decendants.

Some 500 years after the flood, nations that descended from Shem, Ham and Japheth had turned from the true God and made their own ‘gods’ – idols of wood and stone – with elaborate systems of worship of their own devising, often involving human sacrifice.

These people did not have favour in Gods eyes. Virgins could be cleansed, since they had not laid with a man who was not saved. The Bible says that a child is born with the sins of his/her father in Romans 8, and thus the children would have been born into sin (this is also the reason Jesus did not have an earthly father).

The Christian God is a loving, but very strict one. This is evident in the Soddom and Gommorah, the flood, and in the end times stories, that everyone was destroyed in. The people that were killed did not believe in God.

So I suppose to answer your question, the virgins were kept not to be raped, but to become members of Gods people (though the Bible does not say whether they were raped or not, this action would be contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, and the Ten Commmandments, that say to love your neighbor as yourself). The story of Jacobs daughter being raped also implies, that since Jacob and his sons were angry about the rape, it was not socially acceptable to rape, especially within Gods tribes.

quote:
Picking and choosing what you want to hear?

Since you didn't argue my point, I'm going to assume you are stumped for the time being. But lets see who is trying to pick and choose what they want to hear...

quote:
if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife.

You will notice that they are allowed to take the woman they find attractive as their WIFE, which is a scared and holy partnership. The Bible makes no mention that the men are allowed to take the women to their tents and rape them, then throw them away.

As well, you have to understand, that just in the last few hundred years did women start taking steps towards having equal rights, anywhere in the world. In some parts of the world, women still have no rights, compared to men. Though we live in a country (I'm in Canada, and this applies, not sure where you are from) where women have equal rights, this was not the case in the past. This is also true with the Bible.

quote:
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Yes? Many people were stoned to death for their crimes. Again, physical judgement was not uncommon in the old testiment.

"3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
John 8:3-11

I can quote all day too Tazzy bear. Under the new covenant, Jesus taught not to judge, lest ye be judged (Matthew 7).

Jesus forgave a woman deserving of being stoned to death, and forgave her.

I'm not sure what your point is. Capital punishment is still active today, but not as (arguably) brutal and painful. Is your point that death for breaking the law is wrong? I'm missing your point.

quote:
I'm curious as to how long you can keep up this game of playing dumb. Do you want me to quote more passages?

Yes. I do. None of the passages say anything about forced sex, rape, or even unwillingless. You are speaking to the state of mind of people that you have never met, in a land of rules you are completely unfamiliar with. Furthurmore, the men entered into a sacred holy bond with the women, which would point to the opposite of rape, and in times of war, the men were required to wait a period of one month before they were allowed to court the virgins. You quote scripture like you understand it's meaning, but actually quote passages that support MY viewpoint.

This says you are wrong:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

There is a price to pay if you rape, PLUS you are required to marry her after, and cannot divorce.

This says your wrong:
"But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman CRIED OUT, but there was no one to save her. If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and THEY ARE found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days."
Deuteronomy 22:25-29

This says you are wrong:
"Now Jacob heard that he had defiled his daughter Dinah. But his sons were with his livestock in the field, so Jacob held his peace until they came. And Hamor the father of Shechem went out to Jacob to speak with him. The sons of Jacob had come in from the field as soon as they heard of it, and the men were indignant and very angry, because he had done an outrageous thing in Israel by lying with Jacob's daughter, for such a thing must not be done." Genesis 34:4-7

This says you are wrong:
"And Tamar took the cakes she had made and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother. But when she brought them near him to eat, he took hold of her and said to her, ‘Come, lie with me, my sister.’ She answered him, ‘No, my brother, do not violate me, for such a thing is not done in Israel; do not do this outrageous thing. As for me, where could I carry my shame? And as for you, you would be as one of the outrageous fools in Israel."
2 Samuel 13:10-13

I have to stop, it's too easy.

You're in the big leagues now boy. But I still love you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Taz, posted 08-31-2010 11:37 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Taz, posted 09-01-2010 11:00 PM dennis780 has responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2262 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 460 of 477 (578171)
09-01-2010 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by dennis780
08-31-2010 11:42 PM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
Some may, some may not. Though it is important to love and respect all of Gods people, religious or not, it is far more important to save as many people as possible. Christians don't take it to the extent that we are knocking at your door at dinner time (like the mormons and JW's), but we still have an obligation to God to share his word as often as possible.

If I asked you to stop driving, would you?

Once I asked them to stop, it becomes harassment or prozlatizing neither of which I am interested in. Mormons & JWs are Christians. As for driving where is the connection?


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by dennis780, posted 08-31-2010 11:42 PM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 2:20 AM bluescat48 has responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 461 of 477 (578179)
09-01-2010 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by bluescat48
09-01-2010 12:48 AM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
quote:
Once I asked them to stop, it becomes harassment or prozlatizing neither of which I am interested in.

Praying for you? Good luck telling that to the judge.

"You don't understand! These people care about me, and keep praying for good things to happen to me! MAKE THEM STOP!" hahahahaha

quote:
Mormons & JWs are Christians.

You are lucky I am not judging your opinions based on the sentence as a whole, since Mormons and JW's are not christians. Mormons believe in a crackpot named John Smith, and JW's believe that only 144,000 people get into heaven, which is also phony balony.

quote:
As for driving where is the connection?

Your driving does not affect me in any way, but I am dislike it when people drive, since it contributes to greenhouse emissions. Are you required to stop driving, but I am negitive on the subject? Obviously no. Since my morality is no better than yours. You asking someone to stop doing something you dislike, though it has no negative effects, is illogical morally speaking.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by bluescat48, posted 09-01-2010 12:48 AM bluescat48 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by Nij, posted 09-01-2010 5:07 AM dennis780 has responded
 Message 466 by jar, posted 09-01-2010 9:42 AM dennis780 has responded
 Message 467 by Theodoric, posted 09-01-2010 11:13 AM dennis780 has responded
 Message 469 by bluescat48, posted 09-01-2010 11:33 PM dennis780 has responded

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 2962 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 462 of 477 (578212)
09-01-2010 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by dennis780
09-01-2010 2:20 AM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
You are lucky I am not judging your opinions based on the sentence as a whole, since Mormons and JW's are not christians. Mormons believe in a crackpot named John Smith, and JW's believe that only 144,000 people get into heaven, which is also phony balony

Mormons and JWs both believe in Jesus being the messiah/messenger of God/incarnate deity/whatever. That makes them Christians. This is not bluescat's opinion -- it is a fact derived purely from definitions.

And additionally:
"creationists are not christians. they believe in a crackpot theory, and believe that the world is only 6000 years old, which is also phony balony."

See, that's actually true for many creationists, as opposed to your statement which is untrue for all Mormons and JWs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 2:20 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 6:28 AM Nij has not yet responded

dennis780
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 463 of 477 (578227)
09-01-2010 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by Nij
09-01-2010 5:07 AM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
quote:
Mormons and JWs both believe in Jesus being the messiah/messenger of God/incarnate deity/whatever

So by your definition, anyone who believes in 'a' god, is christian no matter what? Because Islamics believe in Jesus as well.

[quote]creationists are not christians[quote]

Though the two are dissociated, that is true. However, the earth being 6000 years old matches with the story of the Bible. Remember, being a christian is based on faith, being a ID (creationist) is based on evidence (as is evolution).

ID's and evolutionists search for evidence to argue their view.

quote:
as opposed to your statement which is untrue for all Mormons and JWs

quote:
The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (that there is only one God, Jesus is God in flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, and Jesus rose from the dead physically, the gospel being the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus), Mormonism denies three of them: how many gods there are, the person of Jesus, and His work of salvation.
http://www.carm.org/is-mormonism-christian

To group religious views that completely disagree is silly, and quite funny.

It's okay. I'll pray for you. I'm off work in a few hours. I put in the good word for you to the Man upstairs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Nij, posted 09-01-2010 5:07 AM Nij has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by cavediver, posted 09-01-2010 7:11 AM dennis780 has responded
 Message 465 by bluescat48, posted 09-01-2010 7:42 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 464 of 477 (578231)
09-01-2010 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by dennis780
09-01-2010 6:28 AM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
It's okay. I'll pray for you. I'm off work in a few hours. I put in the good word for you to the Man upstairs.

On the average, 1 child dies every 5 seconds as a result, either directly or indirectly, of hunger

I think you need to spend every waking moment praying for these guys. I mean, if you believe in the power of intercessory prayer, you'd be a monster not to... right?

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 6:28 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 11:58 PM cavediver has not yet responded

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2262 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 465 of 477 (578237)
09-01-2010 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by dennis780
09-01-2010 6:28 AM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
Though the two are dissociated, that is true. However, the earth being 6000 years old matches with the story of the Bible. Remember, being a christian is based on faith, being a ID (creationist) is based on evidence (as is evolution).

Alright, by tour limited definition, which of the following are Christians?

Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, Mennonites, Presbyterians, Unitarians.

What's more all Christians don't accept that Genesis is literal.

It is not just believing that Christ exists, but that he was the Messiah, that makes a person a Christian, whether they believe in other prophets or not.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 6:28 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
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