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Author | Topic: Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dennis780 Member (Idle past 4796 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
IGNORE PREVIOUS RESPONSE, I ACCIDENTALLY HIT SEND.
quote: Since I haven't been in this thread for some time, I think I was asking a valid question, since different stories require different points, and to argue effectively, I need to know where we are reading from. Shut it.
quote: I love you. God says to love your enemies. "But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."Numbers 31:14-18 This is another example of armies killing the women and children. This, as well as the Jericho story can be explained readily. Before Christ, everything had physical requirements. Gods people paid for their sins by sacrificing a clean animal to God. Men were required to be physically circumsized, etc. The people that were killed were not saved, and did not pay for their sins, and under the covenant with Abram (or Abraham), God delivered the land to his decendants. Some 500 years after the flood, nations that descended from Shem, Ham and Japheth had turned from the true God and made their own ‘gods’ — idols of wood and stone — with elaborate systems of worship of their own devising, often involving human sacrifice. These people did not have favour in Gods eyes. Virgins could be cleansed, since they had not laid with a man who was not saved. The Bible says that a child is born with the sins of his/her father in Romans 8, and thus the children would have been born into sin (this is also the reason Jesus did not have an earthly father). The Christian God is a loving, but very strict one. This is evident in the Soddom and Gommorah, the flood, and in the end times stories, that everyone was destroyed in. The people that were killed did not believe in God. So I suppose to answer your question, the virgins were kept not to be raped, but to become members of Gods people (though the Bible does not say whether they were raped or not, this action would be contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, and the Ten Commmandments, that say to love your neighbor as yourself). The story of Jacobs daughter being raped also implies, that since Jacob and his sons were angry about the rape, it was not socially acceptable to rape, especially within Gods tribes.
quote: Since you didn't argue my point, I'm going to assume you are stumped for the time being. But lets see who is trying to pick and choose what they want to hear...
quote: You will notice that they are allowed to take the woman they find attractive as their WIFE, which is a scared and holy partnership. The Bible makes no mention that the men are allowed to take the women to their tents and rape them, then throw them away. As well, you have to understand, that just in the last few hundred years did women start taking steps towards having equal rights, anywhere in the world. In some parts of the world, women still have no rights, compared to men. Though we live in a country (I'm in Canada, and this applies, not sure where you are from) where women have equal rights, this was not the case in the past. This is also true with the Bible.
quote: Yes? Many people were stoned to death for their crimes. Again, physical judgement was not uncommon in the old testiment. "3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."John 8:3-11 I can quote all day too Tazzy bear. Under the new covenant, Jesus taught not to judge, lest ye be judged (Matthew 7). Jesus forgave a woman deserving of being stoned to death, and forgave her. I'm not sure what your point is. Capital punishment is still active today, but not as (arguably) brutal and painful. Is your point that death for breaking the law is wrong? I'm missing your point.
quote: Yes. I do. None of the passages say anything about forced sex, rape, or even unwillingless. You are speaking to the state of mind of people that you have never met, in a land of rules you are completely unfamiliar with. Furthurmore, the men entered into a sacred holy bond with the women, which would point to the opposite of rape, and in times of war, the men were required to wait a period of one month before they were allowed to court the virgins. You quote scripture like you understand it's meaning, but actually quote passages that support MY viewpoint. This says you are wrong:"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Deuteronomy 22:28-29 There is a price to pay if you rape, PLUS you are required to marry her after, and cannot divorce. This says your wrong:"But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman CRIED OUT, but there was no one to save her. If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and THEY ARE found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days." Deuteronomy 22:25-29 This says you are wrong:"Now Jacob heard that he had defiled his daughter Dinah. But his sons were with his livestock in the field, so Jacob held his peace until they came. And Hamor the father of Shechem went out to Jacob to speak with him. The sons of Jacob had come in from the field as soon as they heard of it, and the men were indignant and very angry, because he had done an outrageous thing in Israel by lying with Jacob's daughter, for such a thing must not be done." Genesis 34:4-7 This says you are wrong:"And Tamar took the cakes she had made and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother. But when she brought them near him to eat, he took hold of her and said to her, ‘Come, lie with me, my sister.’ She answered him, ‘No, my brother, do not violate me, for such a thing is not done in Israel; do not do this outrageous thing. As for me, where could I carry my shame? And as for you, you would be as one of the outrageous fools in Israel." 2 Samuel 13:10-13 I have to stop, it's too easy. You're in the big leagues now boy. But I still love you.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4796 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: Praying for you? Good luck telling that to the judge. "You don't understand! These people care about me, and keep praying for good things to happen to me! MAKE THEM STOP!" hahahahaha
quote: You are lucky I am not judging your opinions based on the sentence as a whole, since Mormons and JW's are not christians. Mormons believe in a crackpot named John Smith, and JW's believe that only 144,000 people get into heaven, which is also phony balony.
quote: Your driving does not affect me in any way, but I am dislike it when people drive, since it contributes to greenhouse emissions. Are you required to stop driving, but I am negitive on the subject? Obviously no. Since my morality is no better than yours. You asking someone to stop doing something you dislike, though it has no negative effects, is illogical morally speaking.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4796 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: So by your definition, anyone who believes in 'a' god, is christian no matter what? Because Islamics believe in Jesus as well.
[quote]creationists are not christians[quote]
Though the two are dissociated, that is true. However, the earth being 6000 years old matches with the story of the Bible. Remember, being a christian is based on faith, being a ID (creationist) is based on evidence (as is evolution). ID's and evolutionists search for evidence to argue their view.
quote: quote: To group religious views that completely disagree is silly, and quite funny. It's okay. I'll pray for you. I'm off work in a few hours. I put in the good word for you to the Man upstairs.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4796 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: Many christians do, myself included. Remember that God's PLAN for an individuals life may, or may not include praying for these children every waking hour. A duty of a christian is to follow what God wants. Actions speak louder than words. Since I have been on 4 missions trips (3 to mexico, 1 to Africa), I would suggest that perhaps you need to do more to help these people. Religion aside, being idle on child starvation awful. I could arrange for someone to call you about costs to go help these people? There are many trips that do not include religious aspects of any kind, but rather just people who want to help. Being an atheist is not an excuse to ignore a huge problem, nor a reason to point the finger at christians and say they do nothing.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4796 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: Who said I always pray out loud? I pray in my head when I am alone. Usually you pray out loud if other people are around so they can hear what you are praying about and agree in prayer with you, and so the person you are praying for can hear you. It says in the Bible that God knows the THOUGHTS of men. Psalm 139:1-6 Isaiah 29:15-16
quote: I don't. I made my point, in that different religions are not the same. Grouping religions together only proved that you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm looking forward to your future arguements, especially in this tread. To argue against religion effectively, it would make sense to study it to some extent. Of which I have no doubt that you have not done.
quote: As is prayer. Is there anything illegal about praying? No. In fact, the opposite is true. It is a constitutional right to have freedom of religion. Why should I NOT be allowed to pray for someone? You offer no logical responses, you have no idea what religions stand for, or the differences between them, and you intentionally go out of your way to 'group US' all together. Although I am sure you have something to contribute here, I'm more than sure it is in a science based thread, not a belief/religion thread, such as this. Hopefully we meet again, on your ground.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4796 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: Theo, go back to the science threads. There is no logical fallacy, because I am not proving my religion correct, by showing that others are wrong. My point to Jar was that grouping different religions together is not right, since these particular religions differ on major points (there is only one God, Jesus was human, etc.). If it appeared that I was making an attempt to prove my religion correct, I apologize.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4796 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You are funny. Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. Since God's people did not destroy anyone who did not believe in their God, Genocide does not fit. Times of war cost thousands of lives, but the only systematic destruction was from God himself, during the flood, Soddom and Gomorah, and in the future, when God comes back. I'm assuming you are still talking about the story in Joshua. The Gods people attacked the city and killed everyone in it, not being sexist (minus keeping virgins) or racist.
quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: Though I am in agreement with you that killing harmless people is morally wrong to me, it happened, and still happens to this day. Perhaps you should direct your points to the U.S. government, who killed thousands of unarmed, harmless Iraqis. I see you have an issue with it when it's written in the Bible.
quote: Are you starting an abortion topic? I'm saying this about the unborn, because I'm not getting into more than one discussion. It is legally permissible to abort an unborn fetus until the time of conception in most of Canada and the US, so killing the unborn would not be considered a crime. Now, if you are asking me to speak of the frame of mind of God, or perhaps those who were led by him to Jericho, I cannot answer that. Tell me what your ape relatives were thinking, then I will offer you my best guess.
quote: I am married.
quote: I fail to see what this has to do with your claim that I support genocide.
quote: No, I gave you a biblical example of a rape that occured, and the peoples reactions to it, that clearly show that rape was not acceptable.
quote: First poopdink, you have NOT proven that forced sex occured at any time. The men were allowed to marry them, which is a SACRED religious ACT. Deuteronomy 22:25-27 - Condemns the rapist to DEATH. Numbers 31:19 - God tells his people that they must purify themselves after war, and their captives. Rape would be the exact opposite of this. If you read the REST of the story of Jericho, the captives are refered to as people, NOT women or virgins, inferring that these people were seen as captives, not sexual objects.
quote: WHAT RAPE??
quote: Taking captives after battle is a horrible thing, but still occurs today.
quote: I have given you more than a handful of responses to your claim that rape occured in any way. You come back with, "They RAPED", offering no evidence that this occured. Like most who do not understand the Bible, or have ever read any of it, you have taken a passage, and twisted it to meet your preset notion of what occured. By looking at the evidence of the verses themselves, you can clearly see that these people were taken captive, cleansed, and married into Gods tribes.
quote: No, I offered you many points, with biblical references to show you that you are wrong, which you quite obviously are. The only thing that I think you have right, is that abortion is wrong, but that is still a debate that is constantly lost by pro-lifers (my mom works for APL). You seem to have a soft spot for losing arguements. Say what you want about me. Others will look at the evidence on our threads (or lack thereof in your case). It is evidence that counts, not fingerpointing. Shame on you. Didn't anyone ever tell you it's impolite to point??
quote: I find it amusing that you think I want to be anywhere near you. I hear stupidity is airborne.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4796 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: I don't have to be in front of you to pray for you, or for that matter, even on the same continent. Besides, (supposing christianity is true), the ultimate negative effect is.... You sell widgets for a living? This explains alot.
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