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Author Topic:   Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 466 of 477 (578272)
09-01-2010 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by dennis780
09-01-2010 2:20 AM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
dennis780 writes:

quote:
Once I asked them to stop, it becomes harassment or prozlatizing neither of which I am interested in.

Praying for you? Good luck telling that to the judge.

"You don't understand! These people care about me, and keep praying for good things to happen to me! MAKE THEM STOP!" hahahahaha

Yes.

First off, there is no reason for verbal prayer. If there is a god she is not so hard of hearing that she cannot hear your thoughts.

dennis780 writes:

quote:
Mormons & JWs are Christians.

You are lucky I am not judging your opinions based on the sentence as a whole, since Mormons and JW's are not christians. Mormons believe in a crackpot named John Smith, and JW's believe that only 144,000 people get into heaven, which is also phony balony.

So you claim. But you can't really expect people to accept your opinion just because you call someone names?

dennis780 writes:

quote:
As for driving where is the connection?

Your driving does not affect me in any way, but I am dislike it when people drive, since it contributes to greenhouse emissions. Are you required to stop driving, but I am negitive on the subject? Obviously no. Since my morality is no better than yours. You asking someone to stop doing something you dislike, though it has no negative effects, is illogical morally speaking.

Morality is a social construct. It has little or nothing to do with laws.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 2:20 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6044
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 467 of 477 (578296)
09-01-2010 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by dennis780
09-01-2010 2:20 AM


Fallacy alert
You are lucky I am not judging your opinions based on the sentence as a whole, since Mormons and JW's are not christians. Mormons believe in a crackpot named John Smith, and JW's believe that only 144,000 people get into heaven, which is also phony balony.

This is a logical fallacy. Do you think you can figure out what fallacy it is?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 2:20 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1401 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 468 of 477 (578543)
09-01-2010 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by dennis780
09-01-2010 12:45 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Before I reply directly to your message, I need to get sidetracked a little in order to better convey my point.

Having been raised by a holocaust denier, I have had the pleasure of meeting some holocaust deniers in my life time. The most common misconception people have about holocaust deniers is that deniers deny outright that the holocaust ever happened, and that they are unpleasant people. Contrary to that belief, all holocaust deniers I have met are quite pleasant people. In fact, they could be the kindest people you've ever met.

The most common themes I've observed coming from holocaust deniers are that (1) they don't believe it was to the extent that conventional history teaches us, (2) they think what was done to the Jews were for the greater good of Europe, and (3) it wasn't as bad as people make it out to be.

When I read your post, I couldn't help but notice that you used all 3 of these themes to justify genocide and rape.

dennis writes:

The people that were killed were not saved, and did not pay for their sins, and under the covenant with Abram (or Abraham), God delivered the land to his decendants.


What a horrible way to defend genocide. Shame on you for even trying to defend genocide.

Are you telling me that even those 2 year olds deserved to die because they were also sinful? What about those 2 months old? How about the unborn?

You've defended genocide by (1) dumbing down on the severity of the situation, (2) claiming that those people deserved to be exterminated, and (3) made it sound so lightly with your words.

Again, shame on you for even trying to justify murdering 1 year olds and pregnant women. Since I'm a pro-lifer, I believe that those unborn babes were also innocent people who were murdered who deserved much better than people like you who would pass off genocide so lightly.

YOU MAKE ME SICK.

So I suppose to answer your question, the virgins were kept not to be raped, but to become members of Gods people (though the Bible does not say whether they were raped or not, this action would be contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, and the Ten Commmandments, that say to love your neighbor as yourself). The story of Jacobs daughter being raped also implies, that since Jacob and his sons were angry about the rape, it was not socially acceptable to rape, especially within Gods tribes.

Again, you (1) dumbed down on the severity of what was done to those virgins, (2) gave some sorry-ass excuse for rape, and (3) pass it off so lightly as if it wasn't that big of a deal.

Try to imagine this. Suppose you have a wife, 2 sons, and 2 daughters. One of your daughter is married and pregnant. My god tells me to go to your home to kill you, your wife, your 2 sons, and your pregnant daughter. But I'm allowed to keep your 13 year old virgin daughter so that I could "marry" her and incorporate her into my tribe.

Again, shame on you for trying to justify rape.

YOU MAKE ME SICK.

Please stay away from my wife. And if we ever have children, please stay away from them as well.

Why am I not making more of an argument? Because someone like you who sees nothing wrong with genocide and rape is a waste of time. Your sense of moral is all screwed up. There isn't much I can say that will make you see that genocide and rape are wrong. I can only hope that you will never have the opportunity to act out your sociopathic nature.

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 12:45 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by dennis780, posted 09-02-2010 3:42 AM Taz has not yet responded

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2299 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 469 of 477 (578551)
09-01-2010 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by dennis780
09-01-2010 2:20 AM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
You asking someone to stop doing something you dislike, though it has no negative effects, is illogical morally speaking.

No negative effects? Harassment has negative effects. If I am selling widgets and try to sell you one and you say you don't want one, but I continuously keep calling you trying to sell my widget, would you claim there is no negative effects. The harassment is the negative effect. I don't want your useless widget, prayer.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by dennis780, posted 09-01-2010 2:20 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by dennis780, posted 09-02-2010 3:46 AM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2886 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 470 of 477 (578556)
09-01-2010 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by cavediver
09-01-2010 7:11 AM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
quote:
I think you need to spend every waking moment praying for these guys. I mean, if you believe in the power of intercessory prayer, you'd be a monster not to... right?

Many christians do, myself included. Remember that God's PLAN for an individuals life may, or may not include praying for these children every waking hour. A duty of a christian is to follow what God wants.

Actions speak louder than words. Since I have been on 4 missions trips (3 to mexico, 1 to Africa), I would suggest that perhaps you need to do more to help these people. Religion aside, being idle on child starvation awful. I could arrange for someone to call you about costs to go help these people? There are many trips that do not include religious aspects of any kind, but rather just people who want to help.

Being an atheist is not an excuse to ignore a huge problem, nor a reason to point the finger at christians and say they do nothing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by cavediver, posted 09-01-2010 7:11 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2886 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 471 of 477 (578583)
09-02-2010 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 466 by jar
09-01-2010 9:42 AM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
quote:
First off, there is no reason for verbal prayer. If there is a god she is not so hard of hearing that she cannot hear your thoughts.

Who said I always pray out loud? I pray in my head when I am alone. Usually you pray out loud if other people are around so they can hear what you are praying about and agree in prayer with you, and so the person you are praying for can hear you. It says in the Bible that God knows the THOUGHTS of men.

Psalm 139:1-6

Isaiah 29:15-16

quote:
So you claim. But you can't really expect people to accept your opinion just because you call someone names?

I don't. I made my point, in that different religions are not the same. Grouping religions together only proved that you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm looking forward to your future arguements, especially in this tread. To argue against religion effectively, it would make sense to study it to some extent. Of which I have no doubt that you have not done.

quote:
Morality is a social construct. It has little or nothing to do with laws.

As is prayer. Is there anything illegal about praying? No. In fact, the opposite is true. It is a constitutional right to have freedom of religion. Why should I NOT be allowed to pray for someone?

You offer no logical responses, you have no idea what religions stand for, or the differences between them, and you intentionally go out of your way to 'group US' all together. Although I am sure you have something to contribute here, I'm more than sure it is in a science based thread, not a belief/religion thread, such as this. Hopefully we meet again, on your ground.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by jar, posted 09-01-2010 9:42 AM jar has not yet responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2886 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 472 of 477 (578586)
09-02-2010 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by Theodoric
09-01-2010 11:13 AM


Re: Fallacy alert
quote:
This is a logical fallacy. Do you think you can figure out what fallacy it is?

Theo, go back to the science threads. There is no logical fallacy, because I am not proving my religion correct, by showing that others are wrong. My point to Jar was that grouping different religions together is not right, since these particular religions differ on major points (there is only one God, Jesus was human, etc.).

If it appeared that I was making an attempt to prove my religion correct, I apologize.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Theodoric, posted 09-01-2010 11:13 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Huntard, posted 09-02-2010 3:10 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 405 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 473 of 477 (578588)
09-02-2010 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 472 by dennis780
09-02-2010 2:41 AM


Re: Fallacy alert
dennis780 writes:

Theo, go back to the science threads. There is no logical fallacy, because I am not proving my religion correct, by showing that others are wrong. My point to Jar was that grouping different religions together is not right, since these particular religions differ on major points (there is only one God, Jesus was human, etc.).

If it appeared that I was making an attempt to prove my religion correct, I apologize.


No, that's not what Theo was getting at. I'll give you a hint. Your fallacy likes haggis.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by dennis780, posted 09-02-2010 2:41 AM dennis780 has not yet responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2886 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 474 of 477 (578590)
09-02-2010 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 468 by Taz
09-01-2010 11:00 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
quote:
What a horrible way to defend genocide. Shame on you for even trying to defend genocide.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You are funny.

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. Since God's people did not destroy anyone who did not believe in their God, Genocide does not fit. Times of war cost thousands of lives, but the only systematic destruction was from God himself, during the flood, Soddom and Gomorah, and in the future, when God comes back.

I'm assuming you are still talking about the story in Joshua. The Gods people attacked the city and killed everyone in it, not being sexist (minus keeping virgins) or racist.

quote:
Jun 21, 1864 - This war on civilians did not shy away from butchering children as well as adults. General Sherman, in a June 21, 1864, letter to Secretary of War Edwin Station, wrote: "There is a class of people, men, women and children, who must be killed...
A Heritage of Hypocrisy

quote:
Mar 18, 1915 - Victory of Çanakkale, 18th March 1915 (Çanakkale is the city close to Gallipoli in Turkey) Turks showed the world how they slapped imperialists. During the war, taking advantage of the situatin, the armenieans killed women and children.
www.flyafrica.info/forums/showthread.php?t=26340

quote:
Nov 24, 1945 - Genghis Rlhan had millions of women and children killed by his own will and with a gay heart, history seeing In him only the great state builder

quote:
Mar 16, 1968 - Between up to 500 unarmed Vietnemese, mostly women and children, were killed on 16 March 1968 by US soldiers during the Vietnam war. Before the victims were killed, several were tortured, raped or beaten.

quote:
Dec 1991 - In December 1991, the Medical Educational Trust in London published arguably the most comprehensive study of casualties of the Gulf War. Up to 250000 men, women and children were killed or died as a direct result of the American-led attack on Iraq.

quote:
Mar 2003 - A new study from an Iraqi humanitarian organization is estimating that 128000 Iraqis have been killed since the US invaded in March 2003. The group—Iraqiyun— estimates that 55 percent of those killed have been women and children aged twelve and under.
www.democracynow.org/2005/7/13/headlines

Though I am in agreement with you that killing harmless people is morally wrong to me, it happened, and still happens to this day.

Perhaps you should direct your points to the U.S. government, who killed thousands of unarmed, harmless Iraqis. I see you have an issue with it when it's written in the Bible.

quote:
Are you telling me that even those 2 year olds deserved to die because they were also sinful? What about those 2 months old? How about the unborn?

Are you starting an abortion topic? I'm saying this about the unborn, because I'm not getting into more than one discussion. It is legally permissible to abort an unborn fetus until the time of conception in most of Canada and the US, so killing the unborn would not be considered a crime.

Now, if you are asking me to speak of the frame of mind of God, or perhaps those who were led by him to Jericho, I cannot answer that. Tell me what your ape relatives were thinking, then I will offer you my best guess.

quote:
Try to imagine this. Suppose you have a wife

I am married.

quote:
Since I'm a pro-lifer

I fail to see what this has to do with your claim that I support genocide.

quote:
Again, you (1) dumbed down on the severity of what was done to those virgins

No, I gave you a biblical example of a rape that occured, and the peoples reactions to it, that clearly show that rape was not acceptable.

quote:
But I'm allowed to keep your 13 year old virgin daughter so that I could "marry" her and incorporate her into my tribe.

First poopdink, you have NOT proven that forced sex occured at any time. The men were allowed to marry them, which is a SACRED religious ACT.

Deuteronomy 22:25-27 - Condemns the rapist to DEATH.

Numbers 31:19 - God tells his people that they must purify themselves after war, and their captives. Rape would be the exact opposite of this.

If you read the REST of the story of Jericho, the captives are refered to as people, NOT women or virgins, inferring that these people were seen as captives, not sexual objects.

quote:
Again, shame on you for trying to justify rape.

WHAT RAPE??

quote:
as if it wasn't that big of a deal.

Taking captives after battle is a horrible thing, but still occurs today.

quote:
Why am I not making more of an argument?

I have given you more than a handful of responses to your claim that rape occured in any way. You come back with, "They RAPED", offering no evidence that this occured. Like most who do not understand the Bible, or have ever read any of it, you have taken a passage, and twisted it to meet your preset notion of what occured. By looking at the evidence of the verses themselves, you can clearly see that these people were taken captive, cleansed, and married into Gods tribes.

quote:
dumbed down on the severity of what was done to those virgins

No, I offered you many points, with biblical references to show you that you are wrong, which you quite obviously are.

The only thing that I think you have right, is that abortion is wrong, but that is still a debate that is constantly lost by pro-lifers (my mom works for APL). You seem to have a soft spot for losing arguements.

Say what you want about me. Others will look at the evidence on our threads (or lack thereof in your case). It is evidence that counts, not fingerpointing. Shame on you. Didn't anyone ever tell you it's impolite to point??

quote:
Please stay away from my wife. And if we ever have children, please stay away from them as well.

I find it amusing that you think I want to be anywhere near you. I hear stupidity is airborne.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Taz, posted 09-01-2010 11:00 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2886 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 475 of 477 (578591)
09-02-2010 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by bluescat48
09-01-2010 11:33 PM


Re: Insulting through Prayer
quote:
No negative effects? Harassment has negative effects. If I am selling widgets and try to sell you one and you say you don't want one, but I continuously keep calling you trying to sell my widget, would you claim there is no negative effects.

I don't have to be in front of you to pray for you, or for that matter, even on the same continent. Besides, (supposing christianity is true), the ultimate negative effect is....

You sell widgets for a living? This explains alot.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by bluescat48, posted 09-01-2010 11:33 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 476 of 477 (578603)
09-02-2010 4:42 AM


this looks like an interesting thread to read, and maybe i will when i get the time. but for now i will just respond to this idea:

Mormons and JWs both believe in Jesus being the messiah/messenger of God/incarnate deity/whatever. That makes them Christians

mormons and jw's are not christian, they are cultists. they do not believe in the same Jesus as true christians do. for mormons they believe satan is his brother, when the bible is clear that he was an angel.

the jw's retranslate the bible to fit their beliefs and not the truth. they also do not accept Jesus as God or the son of (see the book Index of Watchtower Errors by David a. Reed editor.


AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 477 of 477 (578648)
09-02-2010 7:39 AM


Time to Close
This thread seems to have run its course. The discussion doesn't seem to be following the spirit of the OP and is getting a bit personal.

I feel that some issues probably need to start a more focused thread.

If anyone feels this thread should be reopened for more on target discussion minus the personal issues, please make your case for reopening in the Thread Reopen Requests 2 thread.

Thanks
AdminPD


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