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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Nuimshaan
Member (Idle past 5030 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 08-11-2010


Message 121 of 2073 (579223)
09-03-2010 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by extent
05-04-2010 7:22 PM


Evolution of the Chimpanzee
{Non-topic blather hidden - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide blather.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by extent, posted 05-04-2010 7:22 PM extent has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 9:02 PM Nuimshaan has replied
 Message 123 by Coyote, posted 09-03-2010 9:05 PM Nuimshaan has not replied
 Message 127 by Nij, posted 09-03-2010 9:44 PM Nuimshaan has not replied

  
Nuimshaan
Member (Idle past 5030 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 08-11-2010


Message 122 of 2073 (579231)
09-03-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Nuimshaan
09-03-2010 8:51 PM


The Super Specimen
{Non-topic blather hidden - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide blather.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 8:51 PM Nuimshaan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 9:24 PM Nuimshaan has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2182 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 123 of 2073 (579232)
09-03-2010 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Nuimshaan
09-03-2010 8:51 PM


Re: Evolution of the Chimpanzee
{Hide off-topic reply to non-topic blather message - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide something.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 8:51 PM Nuimshaan has not replied

  
Nuimshaan
Member (Idle past 5030 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 08-11-2010


Message 124 of 2073 (579236)
09-03-2010 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Nuimshaan
09-03-2010 9:02 PM


Backtracking
{Non-topic blather hidden - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 9:02 PM Nuimshaan has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 126 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 9:34 PM Nuimshaan has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2182 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 125 of 2073 (579239)
09-03-2010 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Nuimshaan
09-03-2010 9:24 PM


Nonsense
If this is an example of the type of religion you want taught in schools, you have provided the best evidence for laughing you and it right out of the schools.
It is gibberish.
Your post is so confused on the timelines and events that it is not even worth responding to. You appear to simply have no frame of reference with which to address a detailed and scientific response.
I suggest that you first try to unlearn old falsehoods, then you might be able to more adequately evaluate new information.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 9:24 PM Nuimshaan has not replied

  
Nuimshaan
Member (Idle past 5030 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 08-11-2010


Message 126 of 2073 (579240)
09-03-2010 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Nuimshaan
09-03-2010 9:24 PM


Ending the Argument.
{Non-topic blather hidden - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 9:24 PM Nuimshaan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 9:54 PM Nuimshaan has replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4965 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


(1)
Message 127 of 2073 (579243)
09-03-2010 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Nuimshaan
09-03-2010 8:51 PM


Re: Evolution of the Chimpanzee
{Irrelevant reply to blather message hidden - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : I hid something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 8:51 PM Nuimshaan has not replied

  
Nuimshaan
Member (Idle past 5030 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 08-11-2010


Message 128 of 2073 (579245)
09-03-2010 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Nuimshaan
09-03-2010 9:34 PM


The Mediator
{Non-topic blather hidden - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hiding blather.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 9:34 PM Nuimshaan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 10:27 PM Nuimshaan has not replied

  
Nuimshaan
Member (Idle past 5030 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 08-11-2010


Message 129 of 2073 (579252)
09-03-2010 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Nuimshaan
09-03-2010 9:54 PM


God verses Man
{Non-topic blather hidden - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hiding blather.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Nuimshaan, posted 09-03-2010 9:54 PM Nuimshaan has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3977
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 130 of 2073 (579286)
09-04-2010 1:38 AM


Nuimshaan, 24 hour suspension / Many messages hidden
I miss Brad McFall and the good old days when we could get real high quality gibberish, that contained heavy hints of profound insight.
And people were replying to Nuimshaan - Are you that desperate to do something with your keyboard?
I want one reply to this message. It's a scavenger hunt - Someone find the last message in this topic that actually had a real connection to the topic theme. There may be a "get out of 1 suspension card" in it for you. Message must be pre-message 125.
Adminnemooseus
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add message 125 sentence.

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Nij, posted 09-04-2010 3:06 AM Adminnemooseus has replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4965 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 131 of 2073 (579291)
09-04-2010 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Adminnemooseus
09-04-2010 1:38 AM


Re: Nuimshaan, 24 hour suspension / Many messages hidden
Message 119:
Tempo writes:
Religion, or more particularly, creationism, should not be taught in schools. This is because there are too many variations of creationism, since there are so many different religions. None of these are supported by observed evidence or data.
Evolution is backed up with biological data and the fossil record, but even more importantly, evolution is a theory that effectively demonstrates the scientific method. For these reasons, it should be taught in schools.
Following that, there was a backlash at archaeologist before it turned into the nonsense from Nuimshaan and associated bored criticisms.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix link. It was [url=mid=577190] etc. Change to [midt=...]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Adminnemooseus, posted 09-04-2010 1:38 AM Adminnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Adminnemooseus, posted 09-04-2010 8:17 PM Nij has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3977
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 132 of 2073 (579471)
09-04-2010 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Nij
09-04-2010 3:06 AM


Contact with the topic theme has been pretty rare
Yeah, I managed to overlook that one in all the clutter.
Next previous contact (sort of) is message 114. From there you have to go back somewhere prior to message 100.
So we've had 2 topic theme contacts in 30+ messages.
I'm going to close this one down if the next messages aren't on topic.
NO REPLIES TO THIS MESSAGE - AFTER ALL, IT IS OFF-TOPIC.
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Nij, posted 09-04-2010 3:06 AM Nij has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5967
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 133 of 2073 (579478)
09-04-2010 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by extent
05-04-2010 7:22 PM


This video has been removed due to terms of use violations
But if it's typical, I'm sure that it presents a misrepresentation of evolution, which does not accurately inform the students about science nor about scientific concepts. Then, if it's typical, it proceeds to disprove that misrepresentation, AKA "disemboweling a strawman". And, if it's typical of "creation science's" "balanced treatment" "instructional" material, it then urges the students to decide, right then and there, between the Creator (which it is careful to not specifically identify, obvious though to Whom they refer) and atheistic evolution. In short, they are compelling belief.
Is that consistent with the goals and purpose of science education? The 1990 Science Framework for California Public Schools Kindergarten Through Grade Twelve included California's State Board of Education Policy on the Teaching of Natural Sciences, which supercedes the 1972 Anti-Dogmatism Policy (text here of the 1990 policy copied from California State Board of Education | National Center for Science Education):
quote:
The domain of the natural sciences is the natural world. Science is limited by its tools observable facts and testable hypotheses.
Discussions of any scientific fact, hypothesis, or theory related to the origins of the universe, the earth, and life (the how) are appropriate to the science curriculum. Discussions of divine creation, ultimate purposes, or ultimate causes (the why) are appropriate to the history-social science and English-language arts curricula.
Nothing in science or in any other field of knowledge shall be taught dogmatically. Dogma is a system of beliefs that is not subject to scientific test and refutation. Compelling belief is inconsistent with the goal of education; the goal is to encourage understanding.
To be fully informed citizens, students do not have to accept everything that is taught in the natural science curriculum, but they do have to understand the major strands of scientific thought, including its methods, facts, hypotheses, theories, and laws.
A scientific fact is an understanding based on confirmable observations and is subject to test and rejection. A scientific hypothesis is an attempt to frame a question as a testable proposition. A scientific theory is a logical construct based on facts and hypotheses that organizes and explains a range of natural phenomena. Scientific theories are constantly subject to testing, modification, and refutation as new evidence and new ideas emerge. Because scientific theories have predictive capabilities, they essentially guide further investigations.
From time to time natural science teachers are asked to teach content that does not meet the criteria of scientific fact, hypothesis, and theory as these terms are used in natural science and as defined in this policy. As a matter of principle, science teachers are professionally bound to limit their teaching to science and should resist pressure to do otherwise. Administrators should support teachers in this regard.
Philosophical and religious beliefs are based, at least in part, on faith and are not subject to scientific test and refutation. Such beliefs should be discussed in the social science and language arts curricula. The Board's position has been stated in the History-Social Science Framework (adopted by the Board).1 If a student should raise a question in a natural science class that the teacher determines is outside the domain of science, the teacher should treat the question with respect. The teacher should explain why the question is outside the domain of natural science and encourage the student to discuss the question further with his or her family and clergy.
Neither the California nor the United States Constitution requires that time be given in the curriculum to religious views in order to accommodate those who object to certain material presented or activities conducted in science classes. It may be unconstitutional to grant time for that reason.
Nothing in the California Education Code allows students (or their parents or guardians) to excuse their class attendance on the basis of disagreements with the curriculum, except as specified for (1) any class in which human reproductive organs and their functions and process are described, illustrated, or discussed; and (2) an education project involving the harmful or destructive use of animals. (See California Education Code Section 51550 and Chapter 2.3 of Part 19 commencing with Section 32255.) However, the United States Constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion, and local governing boards and school districts are encouraged to develop statements, such as this one on policy, that recognize and respect that freedom in the teaching of science. Ultimately, students should be made aware of the difference between understanding, which is the goal of education, and subscribing to ideas.
"Compelling belief is inconsistent with the goal of education; the goal is to encourage understanding."
Students need to have some degree of understanding of science and scientific concepts. Including "creation science" detracts from that goal.
Students are not to be compelled to believe in the subject matter, but rather to understand it. For example, in 1982 the US Air Force instructed me in Communism. Obviously, the intent was not to compel me to embrace Communism, but rather for me to know more about our opposing superpower (that was during the Cold War). "Creation science" "public school" materials explicitly and specifically seek to compel belief.
Including "creation science" in the science classroom would obviously be contrary to science education.
OTOH, it is very important for creationists that their children do learn everything they can about evolution. If they wish their children to be able to fight against evolution, then keep them ignorant of their avowed enemy and being grossly misinformed about that enemy will only guarantee their defeat. And the defection of their children to their enemy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by extent, posted 05-04-2010 7:22 PM extent has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 134 of 2073 (579482)
09-04-2010 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
08-11-2010 10:29 AM


What would the curriculum be? - Do a new topic?
As I ask in the thread about Should Sacred Studies be part of a general public school curricula, "Should Sacred Studies, the study of religions, their history, their effects on society, the basic tenets of each and inter-relationships be taught as part of the general public education in the US"?
My answer is "most certainly."
I just glanced though the above cited. Your message 1 did not include any specifics, nor did I find such in the following message (again, I was a quick look).
I propose that you start a new topic and include some specifics in your message 1. What aspects of Christianity would you include within a "will be constitutional" framework?
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 08-11-2010 10:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 09-04-2010 9:56 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34045
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


(1)
Message 135 of 2073 (579484)
09-04-2010 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Minnemooseus
09-04-2010 9:35 PM


Re: What would the curriculum be? - Do a new topic?
What aspects of Christianity would you include within a "will be constitutional" framework?
There is lots covered in that thread, but of course Christianity would only be one of the religions covered.
It's hardly worth a whole new thread IMHO, particularly since there are many many examples already in practice, for example the studies in the UK.
The minimal religions covered would the the Judaic family (stressing the similarities), the Indus Valley religions, the historic pantheon (Greek, Roman, Norse), Egyptian, and then the Philosophic religions, the writings of Mencius, Confucius, Taoism, Buddhism.
Typical questions would be things like what did (pick a religion) say about (pick a subject).
It would cover both the good and bad effects of religion over time.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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