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Author Topic:   Faith healing: why does god need to asked to heal people?
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 63 (579720)
09-05-2010 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 5:07 PM


archaeologist writes:

practice what you preach in your first paragraph.

Asking a question which introduces possibilities that go against your belief system does not constitute an ad hominem or a factual claim. Pointing out that your defensiveness appears to be a transparent act of declaring victimization to avoid answering a simple question is also not an ad hominem, as I do not base the conclusion of my argument on the claim.

Please keep in mind forum guideline #4: "Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions."

You have not supported your claim that a small proportion of seemingly answered prayers should be considered proof of an active or even existing god through reasoned argumentation. You have not provided any additional evidence or enlarged upon the argument when presented with rebuttals.

Please provide a reasoned response, or drop the bare assertion.


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caldron68
Member (Idle past 1919 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 32 of 63 (579728)
09-05-2010 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 5:18 PM


i put the Bible ahead of all fields of study and i do not compromise what i believe. whichis why i can say there is no micro-evolution either--can't be because whenGod created he saw it was good so there is no need for micro-changes to improve any species.

Archaeologist, at first I thought that this was a mistake and that what you really meant to say was "macro" evolution. But no! you mean micro-evolution and you have convinced yourself that all of the cold hard facts that support micro-evolution are not facts at all.

Yes, Genesis tells us that God created everything and that he saw it all as "good". Unfortunately, the Bible does not go on to say that micro-evolution was not part of God's plan. The fact that micro-evolution has been proven a thousand times over should tell you something about your own personal interpretation of the Bible. God did not detail how he created life in the Bible and he certainly didn't tell us that evolution was not of his making.

One more thing to consider on this subject. The story of Noah tells us that Noah loaded 2 of each "kind" on to the Ark. Not 2 of each specific species, but 2 of each "kind". Well in order for us to have the diversity of life that we have today from a small starter pool of just 2 of each kind, you must have evolution, both macro and micro.

Cheers,
--Caldron68


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caldron68
Member (Idle past 1919 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 33 of 63 (579731)
09-05-2010 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 12:40 AM


Except in the case of amputees, where it seems to require rather a larger number. More than seven billion, apparently.

ahh the amputee perspective. God is not forced to heal everyone and why He does not heal more than He does is up to Him and He has His reasons.

Ahhhh, the typical Christian response. God works in mysterious ways... No, in this case God has NEVER chosen to heal an amputee. In all of recorded history, not one man has had a limb grow back after an amputation. This is not God working in mysterious ways, this is proof that God simply does not exist.

By the way, you said you had a way to prove that God exists. Well, I would be really interested in a description of this proof.

Cheers,
--Caldron68


This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 34 of 63 (579770)
09-05-2010 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by caldron68
09-05-2010 8:15 PM


Archy's full explanatiom on amputees
On Archys website he clearly explains why God hates amputees.

quote:
1. Why won't God heal amputees?

This is a tough question as it does seem strange that all amputees seem to have their requests denied. we know of one instance in the Gospels where Jesus healed the ear of the servant of the high priest, luke 22:49-51, so we know it is possible.

Yet there seems to be a shortage of such healings in this day and age. There are many reasons we can look to such as, the severed limb is lost, it is too damaged to re-attach, the body is not designed to regrow severed parts but many of these reasons could be looked upon as excuses when they are not. We know nothing is impossible with God thus re-attaching a limb or body part is an easy task for Him.

God does not promise that every request will be granted as He sees the heart of the individual and knows what their motivation is in asking for the severed limb to be restored. This is the key, what is it that lies behind the request? Is it pure selfishness or is it purely for vain reasons that a person wants to have their limb restored? Are the afflicted doing it so they can just be normal and fit in with their friends and society?

What would such a healing do to a person's or an observer's faith? We know that God is not going to do an action that will destroy what He says pleases Him. Also would He get the glory or would the event be taken for granted? We do not know. God is free to heal or not to heal and i doubtHe would want to be seen as some sort of magician who can place body parts back on a body to please His creation. He is not here to please us but we are here to find His will and see His wisdom.

One example of that wisdom can be seen through the construction of the human body. Why weren't humans designed with re-growable limbs? For the simple fact too many people would cut their limbs off just to watch them grow back. Such people would be so distracted or use such regeneration as a side show that no real work for Christ would be done.

God has given us a body which does not regenerate and rarely do we see amputations replaced and the only other reason I can see is that we are to be responsible with what we are given and learn to take care of that body for it is the temple of God, being watchful over it. Yes, accidents happen and we lose a body part but instead of trying to return to a physical normality we must learn what God wants to teach us and be prepared to face life handicapped. Not everyone is lucky to have a normal body for any amount of years and we must be ready to meet their needs through our own handicaps



Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1045 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 35 of 63 (579772)
09-06-2010 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Theodoric
09-05-2010 11:53 PM


Re: Archy's full explanatiom on amputees
archaeologist elsewhere writes:

Why weren't humans designed with re-growable limbs? For the simple fact too many people would cut their limbs off just to watch them grow back.

I know I would.

Lord knows archy has driven me to extremities.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

Real things always push back.
-William James


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Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2886 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 36 of 63 (579774)
09-06-2010 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Omnivorous
09-06-2010 12:00 AM


Re: Archy's full explanatiom on amputees
That explains why regular cuts and burns don't heal either! Too many people would regularly inflict paper cuts on themselves just to watch them heal! Oh wait. Never mind.

Respectfully,

-Meldinoor


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 37 of 63 (579794)
09-06-2010 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Meldinoor
09-06-2010 12:19 AM


Re: Archy's full explanatiom on amputees
And it explains why Jesus didn't raised Lazarus from the dead or heal the blind man in Mark 8. Too many people would have gone about killing themselves and poking their eyes out ...

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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Boof
Member (Idle past 545 days)
Posts: 97
From: Australia
Joined: 08-02-2010


Message 38 of 63 (579796)
09-06-2010 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Omnivorous
09-06-2010 12:00 AM


Re: Archy's full explanation on amputees
archaeologist elsewhere writes:

Why weren't humans designed with re-growable limbs? For the simple fact too many people would cut their limbs off just to watch them grow back.

Makes you wonder why god designed the male orgasm though - awful lot of time wating there...


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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 63 (579807)
09-06-2010 5:03 AM


You have not supported your claim that a small proportion of seemingly answered prayers should be considered proof of an active or even existing god through reasoned argumentation. You have not provided any additional evidence or enlarged upon the argument when presented with rebuttals.

last i looked you were not a moderator nor an admistrator so either practice what you preach or do not respond to me again.

the Bible does not go on to say that micro-evolution was not part of God's plan

yes it does, read Gen 1:30

The story of Noah tells us that Noah loaded 2 of each "kind" on to the Ark. Not 2 of each specific species, but 2 of each "kind". Well in order for us to have the diversity of life that we have today from a small starter pool of just 2 of each kind, you must have evolution, both macro and micro.

that is where you are wrong again neither exist nor did God use them. you forget how genes are designed to work and they do not require any form of evolution. evolutionists are just trying to steal God's glory.

in this case God has NEVER chosen to heal an amputee

prove it for i know that is false as we have the gospels recording Jesus healing the lopped off ear of a person who came to arrest him.

what you mean to say is you have willfully chosen to distort the idea of healing to justify your unbelief. amputees are healed, just not in the way they want. if the limb didn't come off, they would die. if the limb didn't heal from the amputation, they would die.

God heals amputees but He heals them in the way He WANTS because He knows that the amputee is asking for restoration not healing.

the rest of the comments are not worth replying to as they come form those who are not sincere and just want to make trouble.


Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by frako, posted 09-06-2010 9:22 AM archaeologist has not yet responded
 Message 41 by caldron68, posted 09-06-2010 10:28 AM archaeologist has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 40 of 63 (579833)
09-06-2010 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by archaeologist
09-06-2010 5:03 AM


i think these healing miracles can be proved or disproved

lets get 1000 terminaly ill creationists, 1000 atheists, and 1000 evolution-theist all in the same stages of similar aflictions.

have the pope and as many other priests as possible pray over the creationists and whit no modern treatment.

the atheists would get only modern treatment and no praying of any kind

the evolutoin-theists would get both praying and modern medicine.

im sure in this world of 7billion ppl we could get some to go along whit it.

and to make it easy on god to disprove his healing powers he only hasto match 50% of the results of modern medicine.

the other 2 would have to have a diference of say 5% to meirt further investigation.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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caldron68
Member (Idle past 1919 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 41 of 63 (579848)
09-06-2010 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by archaeologist
09-06-2010 5:03 AM


yes it does, read Gen 1:30

Gen 1:30 says....

30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so.

Please explain to me how this explains that evolution is not part of God's master plan.

Evolution, or specializations among like species, is a scientific fact. What you fail to see is God's glory in his own works.

that is where you are wrong again neither exist nor did God use them. you forget how genes are designed to work and they do not require any form of evolution. evolutionists are just trying to steal God's glory.

So there's a distinction between how genes work and evolution as an engine of change? You REALLY need to explain this one because if you're saying there's another path towards macro/micro changes within and across species, you need to get it down on paper and prepare to receive your Nobel prize.

prove it for i know that is false as we have the gospels recording Jesus healing the lopped off ear of a person who came to arrest him.

what you mean to say is you have willfully chosen to distort the idea of healing to justify your unbelief. amputees are healed, just not in the way they want. if the limb didn't come off, they would die. if the limb didn't heal from the amputation, they would die.

God heals amputees but He heals them in the way He WANTS because He knows that the amputee is asking for restoration not healing.

the rest of the comments are not worth replying to as they come form those who are not sincere and just want to make trouble.

My unbelief IS justified by the fact that in all of recorded history, no man has ever had a limb restored after an amputation. The Bible is not an authoritative source on whether amputees have been restored or not. The Bible is filled with fantastic stories that are not supported by reality (Jonah and the Whale). And lest you forget, Luke 22:50 simply says that Malchus was "healed". It does not say that he was restored. There's a big difference and you have chosen to use this passage to prove that God does indeed restore amputees. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. If God can "restore" (your words) Malchus, he can restore others, but of course there is absolutely no evidence for this outside of the Bible.

My disbelief is well justified. God chooses to heal/restore in an arbitrary and capricious way. More specifically, God chooses to heal/restore only those ailments that may move into remission on their own.

By the way, I'm still waiting for that "proof" of God's existence.

Cheers,
--Caldron68

Edited by caldron68, : Edited for syntax.


This message is a reply to:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 373 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 42 of 63 (579851)
09-06-2010 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by frako
09-06-2010 9:22 AM


frako writes:

have the pope and as many other priests as possible pray over the creationists and whit no modern treatment.


I don;t think the creationists will be too happy with that, you see most creationists are protestant, not catholic.
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frako
Member
Posts: 2813
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 43 of 63 (579879)
09-06-2010 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Huntard
09-06-2010 10:32 AM


i taught that that they just say that the pope is the hed of the church when the catholics also have him as a mediator for god or somthing like that.

so the hed of the church should have some more sway whit god evan if he is no mediator


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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 44 of 63 (579880)
09-06-2010 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by frako
09-06-2010 12:36 PM


taught that that they just say that the pope is the hed of the church.....

Yea, the head of the Catholic church.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


Your god believes in Unicorns
This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 45 of 63 (579881)
09-06-2010 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by frako
09-06-2010 12:36 PM


frako writes:
i taught that that they just say that the pope is the hed of the church when the catholics also have him as a mediator for god or somthing like that.

Some protestant groups think that the pope is Satan's representative on earth, and they deny that catholics are even Christian.
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