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Author Topic:   "Chariot Wheels" In the Red Sea
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1 of 43 (578973)
09-03-2010 8:31 AM


Since the issue keeps coming up - and since the posts which actually discuss the issue are way back in the archives it seems that a new tread is in order to go over the evidence.
For the initial post I will simply focus on the claims of chariot wheels.
Ron Wyatt
The claims originate with Ron Wyatt, an "amateur archaeologist". Amateurs can do good work, but there is no evidence that Ron Wyatt ever did any. Instead we see a whole stream of grandiose assertions, none of which have ever been adequately corroborated - and some of which are almost certainly false. Indeed, Ron Wyatt's claims are NOT accepted even by the major Young Earth Creationist organisations ICR or AiG, which would be expected to be strongly biased in favour of many of his claims.
This page has some more information on Ron Wyatt
There are three major claims of chariot wheels from the Wyatt camp.
The Gold Wheel
This wheel is the only clear wheel seen in photographs.
The Problems with the Gold Wheel
This wheel was allegedly seen on Wyatt's expedition, was left behind and has not been seen since. We have only the word of the Wyatt camp as to anything beyond the photograph which contains no scale or anything to clearly identify the location. The lack of a scale is especially important because it is standard archaeological practice to include one or some other indication of the size of the photographed object.
The story behind the discovery of the wheel is itself suspicious. Supposedly it was found while in a boat, using a "molecular frequency generator" a pseudoscientific device consisting of a pair of dowsing rods connected to a box of electronic junk - often literal junk. In fact in tests dowsing has been shown to work only when the operator knows what the result should be. If the story is true then it strongly suggests that Wyatt already knew that the wheel was there - likely planted by him.
And in fact the photograph does look rather as if the wheel was planted, clear of anything but a lump of coral that seems to rest on it. It also doesn't look much like a typical Egyptian chariot wheel. In fact one investigator did turn up a more plausible suggestion as to what it might be. A brass hand-wheel from an old steamship. These are apparently relatively cheap and easy to find. The size difference would not be a problem since there is nothing to measure it against.
In short the evidence seems to favour fraud in this case.
The Recovered Wheel
The Wyatt expedition claimed to have recovered a wheel and taken it to be identified by an Egyptian archaeologists who identified it immediately as coming from the 18th Dynasty.
Problems
This story comes only from the Wyatt camp, with no corroboration. The wheel itself is missing and cannot be examined. It all comes down to the word of Ron Wyatt and his associates.
Even worse, the 18th Dynasty is not too likely a time for the Exodus. In an effort to shoehorn it in the Wyatt camp attempted a massive rewrite of the history of that Dynasty, which relies multiple cases of identifying two distinct individuals as the same person - even Moses turns out to be two different people ! The evidence against this rewrite is so strong that it cannot be considered even remotely plausible. Another blow to the credibility of the Wyatt camp.
The Coral Formations
The region does appear to include a number of coral formations which resemble wheels on axles.
Problems
Nobody can actually tell if the formations actually grew around wheels - and if they did whether they are chariot wheels, or wheels from a much later period.
So far what evidence we do have seems to indicate a more recent origin. The amount of coral growth seems very, very small for a period of ~3500 years. The Wyatt camp reported traces of rust - which cannot possibly come from 18th Dynasty chariot wheels which would use no iron in their construction. If there are wheels under the coral then a more recent origin seems far more likely.
While it might be objected that these issues do not prove that the formations do not contain chariot wheels, that is far from providing any reason to think that they do. I have asked more than once for evidence that these formations do contain chariot wheels and gotten none.
Summary
So that is it. A suspect photograph. A suspect story. And coral formations that might contain wheels - but no evidence that those wheels came from chariots.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 09-05-2010 8:49 PM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 19 of 43 (579799)
09-06-2010 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
09-05-2010 11:17 PM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
quote:
erhaps it would be good to view Lennart Mollart's claimed evidence.

And note that it adds no evidence of wheels, and in fact reuses Wyatt's claims. (Including Wyatt's photograph of the "Gold wheel").
quote:
The primary reason further research has not been done is that Egypt has forbidden anything to be removed from the region under their jurisdiction and then there's the Saudis on the other side who have the Mt Sinai region restricted.
Likely the Muslims have a reluctance to verify anything Biblical which would look good for Israel.
Of course it is far more likely that they don't want foreigners looting their land of valuable historical artifacts. I'm sure that Muslims would love evidence of the great prophet Moses' victory over pagan polytheists.
quote:
I have Lennart's complete video, the Exodus Revealed and his book, The Exodus Case. He's a scientist who has done scientific research on this and no crackpot. His exploration was undertaken after Wyatt's death and independently of Wyatt. Wyatt, who was not a scientst, was the one who first pioneered and explored the region.
Moeller endorses Wyatt's crazy rewrite of the 18th Dynasty. THat qualifies him as a crackpot. And while Wyatt wasn't involved directly in the expedition, Moeller is a follower of Wyatt and his book and video reuse Wyatt's "evidence" and repeat Wyatt's claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Buzsaw, posted 09-05-2010 11:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 24 of 43 (579855)
09-06-2010 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
09-06-2010 10:35 AM


Evidence of Chariot wheels ?
A simple question Buz. Do you have any evidence of chariot wheels which is not covered in the OP ?
If not do you intend to retract your claim that chariot wheels were discovered since you cannot provide a single confirmed example ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2010 10:35 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 36 of 43 (579969)
09-07-2010 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Buzsaw
09-06-2010 10:19 PM


Re: Moving on.
quote:
Did you watch the dvd segment which I cited? Mollar explains that the coral reefs common to the gulf body of water were orderly and closely knit in larger beds whereas the floor region which he researched and photographed was a scattered junk yard like litter of blotches of coral crusted formations, a few which resembled wheels and axels.
Dealt with in the OP. Even if these formations grew around wheels (which itself is unproven) there is nothing that says that they are chariot wheels specifically or dates them back to anywhere near the correct time.
quote:
This wheel thread is somewhat a waste of time, since it becomes essentially a divide and conquer thread for skeptics when debated, void of all of the corroborating stuff supportive to it.
Not at all. You referred to chariot wheels found in the Red Sea (Message 72). This thread documents the fact that you don't have a single real example. Just a bunch of religious apologists ignoring tons of real evidence and jumping to conclusions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2010 10:19 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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