The Flood = many coincidences

Talking the Pacific Ocean basin, you have 3 varieties of mountains, all volcanic:1) Islands, such as Hawaii.
2) Atolls, such as the "blasted" Bikini.
3) Gyotes, which are like atolls except they've sunk faster than the coral reef could keep up.
3) Maybe volcanoes that never grew to reach the surface.I may be over-generalizing, so geologists are welcome to correct me.Now the Atoll and gyote mountains are flat-topped because they once were above or at sea level, subject to erosion (things don't erode much below the wave action level). Their peaks, however, may now be below sea level. My God, how did this happen? Well, one thing is that sea level has risen since the end of the last ice age. The second is that as sea floor spreading happens (more coming on this below) the sea floor sinks deeper (there is an explanation why, but I'm not going to get into it now). Example please? I personally don't know of such a thing.That magic flood can cause anything, can't it? The ocean basins are totally different from the continental areas. The origins are different and the rock types are (largely) different. That's because the oceanic crust is continuously being created new at mid-ocean spreading centers and is also continuously being lost as it is subducted underneath the continents. The maximum elapsed time that has been found for that mid-ocean ridge to subduction zone trip is your 200 million years.There are examples of oceanic crust having been thrust up onto the continents. Such continental remnants of oceanic crust are called ophiolites. One famous area is in Cyprus. That is fairly young, but ophiolites have been found as far back as the pre-Cambrian.By the way, the ocean waters are there because the basins are there, not the other way around.By the way number two - Lake Superior is essentially a lake in a stunted ocean basin. Back about 1.1 billion years ago there was a volcanic spreading center in it's basin.Moose

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Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." - H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

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"Nixon was a professional politician, and I despised everything he stood for ” but if he were running for president this year against the evil Bush-Cheney gang, I would happily vote for him." - Hunter S. Thompson

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"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

I don't know what the age of ocean basin rocks has to do with the reality or lack of reality of "the flood", but here's a tidbit for consideration. The following from Science, March, 23. 2007. The entire abstract:

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A Vestige of Earth's Oldest Ophiolite
Harald Furnes, Maarten de Wit, Hubert Staudigel, Minik Rosing, Karlis Muehlenbachs

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A sheeted-dike complex within the ~3.8-billion-year-old Isua supracrustal belt (ISB) in southwest Greenland provides the oldest evidence of oceanic crustal accretion by spreading. The geochemistry of the dikes and associated pillow lavas demonstrates an intraoceanic island arc and mid-ocean ridge-like setting, and their oxygen isotopes suggest a hydrothermal ocean-floor-type metamorphism. The pillows and dikes are associated with gabbroic and ultramafic rocks that together make up an ophiolitic association: the Paleoarchean Isua ophiolite complex. These sheeted dikes offer evidence for remnants of oceanic crust formed by sea-floor spreading of the earliest intact rocks on Earth.

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SourceI'll try to get back to message 24, but that a lot a baloney to try to slice. I might get something posted tomorrow.Moose

First of all, I think you need to take a clear old Earth vs. young Earth position. As I see it, you have been doing a mixture of both - 200 million year old oceanic crust (old Earth-ism); A few thousand year old "great flood" (young Earth-ism). I'll tell you, Percy misspoke - The ocean basins are considerably older than 200 million years, although not in their current form. It's the current oceanic crust that is generally no older than 200 million years. But there are rocks of oceanic crust origin that are up to billions of years old (message 34). It just the case that that former oceanic crust has since become part of the continental crust.Fingernail analogy: Your fingernails are probably less than a year old, in their current form (no, I don't know how fast fingernails grow). Still, you did have fingernails prior to that year ago.Now, for plate tectonic boundaries in general:1) Mid-ocean ridges (MOR (not MOM), if you must have an acronym) - The spreading centers where new oceanic crust is produced.2) Subduction zones - Oceanic crust is lost beneath the continents or other oceanic crust.3) Transform faults (ie the San Andreas) - Plate contacts that are moving laterally relative to each other. There are also tranform faults within the oceanic crust (note where MOR's are offset).Now I'm no expert, but I suspect that type 2/type 3 hybrids exist. There might even be such a thing as type 1/type 2 and type 2/type 3 hybrids.And the type of margin at a given location can change. There is currently no subduction zone on the North American east coast, but there once was (real geologists, correct me if I'm wrong). The Atlantic Ocean basin has opened, closed, and reopened. North America and South America were once side by side with Europe and Africa. That's why they fit together like a jigsaw puzzle.Currently the Atlantic Ocean basin is getting wider and I'm guessing the Pacific Ocean basin might be getting narrower. And/or maybe, to some degree, some continents are getting compressed.Others have answered other things - I leave those at that. Peppering your messages with wise-ass little remarks such as this tends to really annoy me. And remember, part of me is Adminnemooseus. You don't want to get the A-moose cranky.Minnemooseus

We must thank God that we have an expert like Architect-426, to point out that people spend so many years of their lives studying and working in geology only to end up as clueless idiots.Moose

Actually, I was questioning the existence: At the time, the oceanic volcanos I had in mind were the mid-ocean Hawaiian type volcanos (shield volcanos). Architect responded with an overkill of links, which were apparently all calderas in the island arc geologic environment. These are, like Fuji, composed of a more siliceous and more explosive magma composition.Bottom line: Architect was correct in supplying information that there were indeed oceanic calderas.You (Percy) picked up on my following sentence, which was actually a little throw away side comment: This should have been pointed out 9 months ago. I don't know why it wasn't - Perhaps I didn't notice it or the topic was moving so fast that I didn't think it was worth a message.Anyhow, you largely were mistaken in your jumping on Architects response (or something like that).Moose

I must presume that Robert Byers is a young Earth creationist (YEC). If such is actually true, your argument (and any argument against YECism) can be reduced down to some variation of "there is massive evidence that the YEC time frame is very wrong". YEC is wrong starting right at the Y.As I see it (and this is also the admin-mode perspective), outside of the "Dates and Dating" forum, the old Earth evo side needs to argue from the "presuming the Earth is YEC young" perspective.Very possibly this consideration deserves its own topic. Alas, the non-admin mode is only capable of doing "Proposed New Topics" (PNTs) that the admin-mode would be inclined to reject.Moose

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Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

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"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

​

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

​

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

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"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

As I had posted earlier in this topic, I find it rather futile to debate things "old Earth timescale" to a young Earth creationist (YEC) who denies that old Earth timescale. I would prefer arguing the point without invoking any absolute timescale.So, instead of saying "no flood 4350 years ago", I would say "no such flood anytime in human history". It doesn't matter if you try to shoehorn that human history into the YEC time-frame, or put that human history into the modern scientifically accepted old Earth time-frame.There is no non-dubious evidence for a global flood at anytime in human history. It doesn't matter if that history goes back 5000 years, 10,000 years, 100,000 years, or 1,000,000 years.As I understand and recall, the most recent remotely global flood happened back in the Cretaceous. That's (incidentally 60+ million years ago on the old Earth timescale) long prior to any human life evidence.Moose

One of the (IMO) better creationist "document the flood" effort was such a thing. It can be found at Assessing Creationist Stratigraphy with Evidence from the Gulf of Mexico. One concept they floated was:

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Recent support for a Paleozoic/Mesozoic - Flood/post-Flood boundary was presented in a special symposium within the Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal (see Snelling 1996). Several articles proposed and defended the Paleozoic/Mesozoic boundary as marking the termination of the Genesis Flood.

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That boundary is the end of the Cretaceous.It's been a long time since I've read that article, but as I recall, they had the honesty of admitting that that, or the other concepts explored, failed to support the Noatic flood.My point is, go ahead and set aside any and all absolute datings of the stratigraphy. All you need is geologic relative dating via stratigraphy. Cretaceous rocks are way below (earlier) than the appearance of humans. So, even if you date the Cretaceous at C. 4350 years ago, it's still a fail.Moose

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Petrology (from Greek: πέτρα, petra, rock; and λόγος, logos, knowledge) is the branch of geology that studies rocks, and the conditions in which rocks form.

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Robert, if it has anything to do with the formation of rock, it is part of geologic study.Igneous petrology - The study of igneous rocks and their origins. The solidification of a magma is the precipitation of crystals out of a solution (albeit a very hot solution). You may wish to call the study "geochemistry", or call it "igneous petrology", or even call it something else, but it is part of the geological sciences.Moose - the proud owner of a very rusty geology bachelors of science (BS) degree

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Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

​

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

​

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

​

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

​

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose