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Author Topic:   Problems with evolution? Submit your questions.
dennis780
Member (Idle past 3005 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 316 of 752 (580184)
09-08-2010 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by Huntard
09-07-2010 8:03 AM


Re: Claims
quote:
Do you agree that all modern domestic dogs are descended of wolfs? If so, does this mean that these ancestral wolfs had all the genetic information necessary to make all domestic dog breeds?

quote:
The origin of the domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) began with the domestication of the gray wolf (Canis lupus) several tens of thousands of years ago. Domesticated dogs provided early humans with a guard animal, a source of food, fur, and a beast of burden. The process continues to this day, as the intentional cross-breeding of dogs continues, to create the so called "designer dogs".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog

Yes. I do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Huntard, posted 09-07-2010 8:03 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Huntard, posted 09-08-2010 4:01 AM dennis780 has responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 3005 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 317 of 752 (580185)
09-08-2010 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by jar
09-07-2010 8:05 AM


Re: Claims
quote:
Oetzi

No. I am not at all. Can you offer my a source to read up on it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by jar, posted 09-07-2010 8:05 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by jar, posted 09-08-2010 8:32 AM dennis780 has responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 524 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 318 of 752 (580187)
09-08-2010 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by dennis780
09-08-2010 3:46 AM


Re: Claims
dennis780 writes:

Yes. I do.


Ok. Would you mind explaining then why those ancestral wolves didn't have the dachshunds short legs? Since those are caused by a dominant allele, which means that if a creature has this allele, it will have short legs. Since the ancestor wolves didn't have those legs, they couldn't have all the genetic information needed to make all dogbreeds we see today. Therefore, this allele is an addition to the DNA.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by dennis780, posted 09-08-2010 3:46 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
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dennis780
Member (Idle past 3005 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 319 of 752 (580189)
09-08-2010 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by crashfrog
09-07-2010 10:37 AM


Re: What's the problem?
quote:
The same thing that causes mutations of nucleotides 1,2,4,5,7,8,10,11, etc.

Not frameshift mutations.

quote:
Mutations do not have the kind of specificity to attack the first and second base of a codon but ignore the third.

Yes, frameshift mutations do this specifically.

quote:
you're aware that frameshift mutations are cyclic, right?

No, but I can't find any information online that says they are, can you provide a link, so I can read it?

quote:
add another two to return to the original reading frame

OH, I see. you are saying after three frameshifts, the mutation returns to the original sequence?? That doesn't make any sense. And you are only bringing up one form of frameshift mutation.

The car was red. The red car had one key. TAG

For my examples sake, I am using words that make sense to us, and using just one of the different stop codons (DNA amber).

Insertion Frameshift 1 (occurs at H in first the)

The car was red. Tth ere dca rha don eke yth eTA G

Insertion Frameshift 2 (occurs at C in car, stop codon TAG used)

The jca rwa sre. dTt her edc arh ado nek eyt heT AG

To things to notice, that the mutations caused the loss of information, as well as altering the stop codon. If we took one more step, the stop codon would be functional again, but the message is still useless.

I hope this was what you meant by cyclic. I also only used insertion framshifts, since using both deletion and insertion could result in a nearly infinite amount of possibilities (though more than likely, the information contained would contain no functional purpose).

quote:
I mean, surely you wouldn't pop up here and not know what you were talking about, right?

Please show me an example of a sequence of frameshift mutations that produce new functional information randomly. You cannot select for certain letters, since the new chain of nucleotides would then have been designed. Hope your keyboard is new.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by crashfrog, posted 09-07-2010 10:37 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by crashfrog, posted 09-08-2010 10:02 AM dennis780 has responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 3005 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 320 of 752 (580192)
09-08-2010 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by crashfrog
09-07-2010 10:49 AM


Re: What's the problem?
quote:
Yet, if you have a dozen people each roll two dice a hundred times and chart the results

If the total sequences of genetic information equalled twelve, or close to it, you would be correct. Give 100 people 3 million dice, then let them roll them a hundred times. The likelyhood of 2 people having 2,453,564 is next to impossible. Since human, or for that matter most any organisms' genome is not as simple as 12, this is a poor example. 3 million is also a fair number, since humans have much more than this, but I am low balling (since I don't know how many base pairs the organism in question actually has).

quote:
That means that populations of living organisms come to be dominated by the individuals who had mutations that increased, not decreased their fitness - they are, after all, the only ones left.

I'm on your side there.

quote:
The source is the same as new nonfunctional genetic code - random mutation. Since mutations are random they produce a mix of functional and nonfunctional new genetic code. Natural selection serves to weed out nonfunctional genetic changes from functional ones.

Oh, thats a relief. So you know of thousands of documented cases of this right? New random mutation of functional DNA sequences. Because for evolution to be true, there should be BILLIONS of examples. But since science has not always known about DNA (originally in 1869), it's fair to say that since then, there would have been many research projects to support random mutation of new functional genetic information, correct?

quote:
The evidence for this is ample, has been given to you already, and was either not understood by you or simply ignored.

Thus far I have 4 cases of mutation, two of which are antibiotic resistance, which is not random. One case of HGT, which is not the source, but the method of passing mutation, and one case where two labs performed the same experiment and got similar results, pointing to the fact that this was more than likely not random, but the organisms adaptability to specific conditions (and no sources were quoted that stated the changes were the result of additional or deleterious mutation, of which I did ask for).

But why aren't there hundreds? Shouldn't one be able to google it and find thousands of good examples? Because I did. I found many examples of mutation causing disease, and how loss mutation is repaired.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by crashfrog, posted 09-07-2010 10:49 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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dennis780
Member (Idle past 3005 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 321 of 752 (580213)
09-08-2010 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by Huntard
09-08-2010 4:01 AM


Re: Claims
quote:
Since those are caused by a dominant allele

Dogs with short legs did not inherit them from wolves. They got a disease similar to the one that causes dwarfism in mice.

quote:
Since the ancestor wolves didn't have those legs

That neither of us can say. But even if a wolf did get this disease, it's fair to say in the wild, it would be at an extreme disadvantage, so it and it's line would have more than likely died.

quote:
Therefore, this allele is an addition to the DNA.

Again, dwarfism is a birth defect, that is passed on in Alleles, which perfectly explains short legged dogs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Huntard, posted 09-08-2010 4:01 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Huntard, posted 09-08-2010 8:34 AM dennis780 has responded

  
dennis780
Member (Idle past 3005 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 322 of 752 (580218)
09-08-2010 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Coyote
09-07-2010 10:56 AM


Re: Macroevolution again?
quote:
Each micro takes the individual farther from the original.

yes.

quote:
Eventually the message hardly resembles the original.

And it's meaningless.

I get what you are trying to say. I follow. I'm just saying there is not evidence to support the claim that these small changes increase complexity, or add new functional genetic information. But there are hundreds of examples of genetic loss, that are both beneficial and detrimental to the organism.

quote:
Nonsense!

Prove it. Thats what you are here for.

quote:
And belief has nothing to do with science.

Nor does evolution.

quote:
Science deals with evidence.

For which there is none for macro evolution.

quote:
belief gets in the way of learning

This has nothing to do with lack of evidence, since there is plenty of evidence for ID. Both of us are debating because we have bias opinions on how we believe the earth came into existance. Anyone that tells you they are completely unbias is lying...don't lend him your car.

quote:
No, all information does not need an ultimate source; each individual gets his "information" from his parents.

Where did they get it from?

quote:
You seem to want some miraculous change

Macro evolution is a miraculous change. That is what we are talking about.

quote:
all at once or something, giving instant "new functional genetic information."

No one has offered evidence that this takes place over time either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Coyote, posted 09-07-2010 10:56 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 323 of 752 (580226)
09-08-2010 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by dennis780
09-08-2010 3:48 AM


Re: Claims
dennis780 writes:


quote:
Oetzi

No. I am not at all. Can you offer my a source to read up on it?

You can start by reading this thread called "Looking for the Super-Genome. -And it ain't found".

If the Genesis 2 myth were true then Oetzi would have been alive at the time of Adam, likely a grandson or so.

The important thing about Oetzi is that not only did we get samples of his genetic makeup, he was covered in pollen, had blood from four other humans on him, had plants and shrooms and arrows and axe handles and his clothes and shoes and we could even tell what he had eaten and when he had eaten it.

Oetzi gave us an enormous amount of genetic information about plants and critters and people, all from the time Adam would have been alive.

And guess what?

The genetic information shows us that the critters and plants and people then did NOT have "all the genes necessary to explain the variety of life we see around us". In fact, the genes were almost identical to what exists today, a sub-group as opposed to a super-group.

Edited by jar, : get rid of stray smilies


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 524 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 324 of 752 (580228)
09-08-2010 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by dennis780
09-08-2010 8:08 AM


Re: Claims
dennis780 writes:

Dogs with short legs did not inherit them from wolves. They got a disease similar to the one that causes dwarfism in mice.


This means that unlike your previous statements, you now admit that addition can be made to DNA.

That neither of us can say.

Yes we can. No remains of shortlegged wolves were fouhnd. The fact that hunting with those legs is very dificult, and would certainly have led to extinction is another powerful indicator.

But even if a wolf did get this disease, it's fair to say in the wild, it would be at an extreme disadvantage, so it and it's line would have more than likely died.

Exactly. Therefore, the wolves from which domestic dogs were bred did not have this allele, ergo it was an addition.

Again, dwarfism is a birth defect, that is passed on in Alleles, which perfectly explains short legged dogs.

It was an DNA insertion that caused this. This means an addition to the DNA you said couldn't happen.
This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 325 of 752 (580238)
09-08-2010 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by dennis780
09-08-2010 4:35 AM


Re: What's the problem?
The likelyhood of 2 people having 2,453,564 is next to impossible.

That's correct, but again - 3 dice or 3 million, the dice are going to follow entirely predictable probability distributions.

No, we can't predict exactly the outcome of any one roll of the dice. And of course scientific results are never exactly replicated - we use statistical tests to discern what results are simply the result of chance and what results are significant; what results allow us to discard the null hypothesis. "Random" doesn't mean "unreplicatable." It means "probabilistic."

. Since human, or for that matter most any organisms' genome is not as simple as 12, this is a poor example.

The human genome is 3.6 billion base pairs long, so your intuition is largely correct, any particular mutation is fairly rare. When two humans have the same mutation at the same place in their genome the most reasonable explanation is that it's there by heredity. This is the principle that underlies paternity testing.

So you know of thousands of documented cases of this right?

Sure. It's such a trivially observable fact that we let undergrads perform the experiments. It's so trivial, in fact, that these days you can't even publish a paper on one; no journal would publish it because it's just not significant enough. It's like trying to publish an article that says "color of sky found to be blue."

Many documented cases have already been given to you. You've simply incorrectly attributed them to horizontal gene transfer or outright ignored them. I think there's plenty on your plate to respond to as it is.

Thus far I have 4 cases of mutation, two of which are antibiotic resistance, which is not random.

Incorrect - we've proved that they're random.

One case of HGT, which is not the source

Incorrect - we've proved that HGT was not responsible.

one case where two labs performed the same experiment and got similar results, pointing to the fact that this was more than likely not random

Incorrect - you've failed to understand what "random" means.

But why aren't there hundreds?

There are a countless number, which you have dismissed on entirely spurious grounds.


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 326 of 752 (580239)
09-08-2010 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by dennis780
09-08-2010 4:19 AM


Re: What's the problem?
Not frameshift mutations.

Yes, those are frame shift mutations. Any single or double indel is going to shift the reading frame regardless of what base it occurs at.

Yes, frameshift mutations do this specifically.

No, they do not. Under no circumstances does this occur.

Let me be absolutely clear - you have no idea what you're talking about; a frameshift mutation is not a mutation to the third base of a codon, it's an indel at any point in the gene that shifts the reading frame. "Shifts" the reading "frame." "Frameshift." Get it?

And you are only bringing up one form of frameshift mutation.

There is only one form of frameshift mutation - an indel. Point substitutions don't shift the reading frame.

see. you are saying after three frameshifts, the mutation returns to the original sequence?? That doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense because the reading frame is three bases long; three indels is going to remove or add an entire codon. 3 modulus 3 equals zero.

No, but I can't find any information online that says they are, can you provide a link, so I can read it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frameshift_mutation

quote:
A frameshift mutation (also called a framing error or a reading frame shift) is a genetic mutation caused by indels (insertions or deletions) of a number of nucleotides that is not evenly divisible by three from a DNA sequence. Due to the triplet nature of gene expression by codons, the insertion or deletion can change the reading frame (the grouping of the codons), resulting in a completely different translation from the original. The earlier in the sequence the deletion or insertion occurs, the more altered the protein produced is.

When you do a number of indels divisible by three there's no frameshift mutation. When you do one indel, that's a frameshift because one is not divisible by three. When you do three indels you've just taken out or added an entire codon so there's no shift to the reading frame.

The car was red The red car had one key TAG

Take out the periods because they're clearly messing you up.

Indel 1:

TTh eca rwa sre dTh ere dca rha don eke yTA G

Indel 2:

TTT hec arw asr edT her edc arh ado nek eyT AG

Indel 3:

TTT The car was red The red car had one key TAG

Back to normal.

Or let's use your example:

The jca rwa sre. dTt her edc arh ado nek eyt heT AG

Indel 3:

The jca rwa sre. dTt hXe red car had one key the TAG

Frameshift mutations happen only when the number of indels is not divisible by three. As you can see, the reading frame is restored after the third indel. Divisible-by-three amounts of indels don't shift the reading frame.

To things to notice, that the mutations caused the loss of information, as well as altering the stop codon.

Organisms don't really rely on the stop codon as much as you think; protein synthesis ends when the ribosome reaches the stop codon but it also ends when the ribosome runs off the end of the RNA. Losing a stop codon doesn't really matter. A frameshift might introduce a spurious stop codon, however, and that will have a drastic effect on the protein product.

But again, the difference between your example and the genetic code is that while not every three letters is an intelligable word - our frameshift of a sentence produced garbage until it was reverted - every three bases is a codon. There aren't any unusued codons. A frameshift is more likely to alter the protein product but in only one possible case is it going to actually destroy the product - when a spurious stop codon is produced. But again, I've just shown you how easy it is to reverse a frameshift, you just add more indels until you've restored the reading frame.

A frameshift doesn't cause a loss of information in the genome because the codons continue to encode amino acids. They're not lost, they're just interpreted differently.

though more than likely, the information contained would contain no functional purpose

Most of your genome is information with no functional purpose. Well over 98% of the human genome is sequence with no regulatory or protein-encoding function at all.

Does that suggest to you, perhaps, that the human genome is the result of mutation?

Please show me an example of a sequence of frameshift mutations that produce new functional information randomly.

Any frameshift mutation is going to produce new information randomly, because it will shift the reading frame and result in an entirely new translation of the sequence into proteins. It's not possible to produce "nonsense" codons because all possible codons code for something; the codon substitution table is fully "filled in."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by dennis780, posted 09-08-2010 4:19 AM dennis780 has responded

Replies to this message:
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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1682
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 327 of 752 (580274)
09-08-2010 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by dennis780
09-08-2010 4:35 AM


Different mutations in the yeast
(...) one case where two labs performed the same experiment and got similar results, pointing to the fact that this was more than likely not random, but the organisms adaptability to specific conditions

As Wounded King pointed out when the experiment was first mentioned in this thread (message 263 - sorry, but I've forgotten how to link to it), the experiments did not find the same mutations, they found mutations with similar effect.

To quote some specifics from the second paper (here):

quote:
The two mutations (ACP-1 and ACP-2) had similar effects on pH optimum and overall activity with respect to beta-glycerophosphate, and they effected similar shifts in substrate specificity. The particular mutational shift in this experiment, however, resulted in an enzyme with greater maximum activity than in the first experiment. In fact, ACP-2 effected a maximum activity at pH 6 that is approximately equal to the activity of the wild type enzyme at its pH optimum. pH4

So the same mutations didn't arise. The environment selected for mutations that had a particular effect, but the two different strains acheived this effect in a different way.

I also wish you'd stop referring to them as bacteria. This was an experiment in yeast.


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Tram law
Member (Idle past 2934 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 328 of 752 (580282)
09-08-2010 1:09 PM


In regards to human brains.

What is the evolutionary purpose to having a large brain in which only ten percent is used? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just have a smaller brain if all we need is just ten percent is needed to operate our body and give us the capacity of reason?

Does this also mean that there are far more uses of the brain than have been discovered? (I'm sorry if this seems like an odd question but I don't know how else to phrase it.)


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jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 329 of 752 (580283)
09-08-2010 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Tram law
09-08-2010 1:09 PM


What makes you think only 10% of your brain gets used?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 330 of 752 (580284)
09-08-2010 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Tram law
09-08-2010 1:09 PM


10% of the brain
I think the 10% figure is a myth.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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