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Author Topic:   Humans faults and evolutionary biology
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 204 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 1 of 40 (566161)
06-23-2010 11:21 AM


I am A Christian, but I don't take the creation story literally, and as a result I believe in theistic revolution. However, lately I have got doubts, so I wanted to ask something here.
A important facet of Christian teaching is that humans are prone to sin, and we choose so by free will.
But without to much education on the subject, I can see some of the sinful humans tendencies being biological traits and mechanisms. Examples could be, anger, sexual desire, desire to dominate, humans being influenceable. Some of these traits seem to make sense for a amoral, evolutionary way. I would like it when somebody could enlighten me a bit if this is true.
God has been shown in the bible to be displeased with humans faults, such as the story of noah indicates, and of course Jesus's sacrifices for humans sins.
So my question is: If god hates sin so much, why did he create us like this, with this traits?Even when, existing out of time, he knew what would happen? We might be able to suppress it, but through history, humanity still causes trouble.
I haven't been able to rationalize this.I am looking for more information from a theistic evolutionary view. Are there flaws in this statement? Or does anybody agree?
I do not know where to put this, I am new, but I would like that a few people who do know more about the subject can reply.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Modulous, posted 06-23-2010 5:19 PM Kairyu has not replied
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 Message 5 by hotjer, posted 06-23-2010 5:40 PM Kairyu has replied
 Message 6 by Taq, posted 06-23-2010 5:43 PM Kairyu has not replied
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Kairyu
Member (Idle past 204 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 9 of 40 (566302)
06-24-2010 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by hotjer
06-23-2010 5:40 PM


Re: Theology n' Science
Well, I think the two are connected in various ways, god did design this world after all, so this world and our knowledge has to make sense with our knowledge with god, otherwise we're leaving a blind spot open.
But what I wonder is, while it's true some of our traits make sense in a way, why is god so mad and disappointed in humans, when he knew our many traits would backfire horribly and cause suffering
-
In general, there's another thing. Imagine a rough thug who's been convicted to jail because of repeated violent behavior. But some people are naturally more agressive then others. Let's assume this person is biologically prone to violence.It happens IRL, our brains work this way. Sometimes the chemical system is messed up, and as a result people can have trouble controlling their anger.
He may be responsible for his deeds.I also agree with that. But can he help having a error in his brain making him more violent? People have free will. But our biological personality influences us, and it set beyond our power.
It's like this to a lesser extent with humanity.We can(and must) use our free will to restrain ourselves. But often we fail in small, or big ways because the ways our brains work.
-
One thing, as I do not believe in literal Adam and Eve, I think it's off topic to use it as a literal solution to explain our sinfulness.Otherwise this will spin of in debate considering it's truth. The symbolic value is allowed though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by hotjer, posted 06-23-2010 5:40 PM hotjer has replied

Replies to this message:
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Kairyu
Member (Idle past 204 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 11 of 40 (566304)
06-24-2010 5:45 AM


Alright.This replies have been helpful, but I haven't really got to the point to rebuke this idea in it's totality.
Also, to gain a good view, can somebody support my problem, to gain a good view from both sides?

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by thingamabob, posted 08-06-2010 10:48 AM Kairyu has replied

  
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 204 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 18 of 40 (566512)
06-25-2010 4:04 AM


new opinions?
Alright, I think the debate about the money making bit of religon is off topic.
I've been thinking about this. I still lack a bit of information. Could some people give their personal opinion on this subject? A few facts would be handy as well.

  
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 204 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 19 of 40 (572512)
08-06-2010 8:46 AM


Alright this thread has died I think. It's been more then a month. But I am still lacking knowledge on this problem. Does there exist a topic here that also deal with this problem? I am still not sure if my troubles with this are true or not. Some people have been trying to help me fit it in with christian thought, but I would like some neutral feedback on the subject.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 25 by Otto Tellick, posted 08-07-2010 3:42 AM Kairyu has not replied

  
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 204 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 26 of 40 (573438)
08-11-2010 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by thingamabob
08-06-2010 10:48 AM


Re: SIN
Your explanation in these post rolls back to a explanation that used biblical literalism, a young earth, and the fall. In this sense, you can have a clear answer.
But: While that may make sense when addressing this problem, I have a issue with it: I do not believe in a young earth, I believe in theistic evolution. I was brought up as such, and from what I learned at school in biology, geography, and history , from science sources that I encounter everywhere, and also this site. Generally the evidence from a old earth seems to be the right one for me.
The topic if the earth is young, and the fall is true, or that the scientific timeline is true, and humans evolved somehow with god's help is another one entirely. It's good to have the literalistic view in this topic though.
For this topic. I am going to assume the latter.
*The goal is to discuss if: do general and evolutionary human traits clash with the behavior god wants us to have? *
From a atheistic standpoint, they do.
From a literalist standpoint, we have not evolved, and our negative traits have a other causes, that god did not want. (the fall)
And now I am looking for what old earth creationists have to say on this matter.
Questions would be:
A do these traits indeed clash?
B If they do, could there be a explanation for it why god made us like this?
I am sorry if I am being vague, English is my second language, and debating is hard, even more so with this very complicated subject. My knowledge is also lacking.

This message is a reply to:
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Kairyu
Member (Idle past 204 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 29 of 40 (575559)
08-20-2010 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dexx
08-13-2010 1:24 AM


Yeah, that part about the neural makeup that makes us more or less immoral is what I meant.
Sorry for the theological follow up, but that's what I mean. Why do mutations exist that make us more evil? That's not free will. A neurally immoral human can alter his fate, I know that , but is it his fault as his makeup makes him prone to evil? It just doesn't seem logical to me.

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Replies to this message:
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Kairyu
Member (Idle past 204 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 31 of 40 (579689)
09-05-2010 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
08-20-2010 1:44 PM


Such a message denies mainstream christian dogma.. If I am going to believe in a christian god, there must be a higher law of good and evil. And what I am pondering is if our base natural behavior(if you believe god had a hand in evolution, or at least wanted it to occur) as explained by evolution and old earth science(which I believe in) does reflect this, or that it's amoral, or a mix of both. But why would god take those last two options? Sadly, my biological knowledge is to lacking to give a decent answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 08-20-2010 1:44 PM jar has replied

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Kairyu
Member (Idle past 204 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 33 of 40 (580521)
09-09-2010 4:18 PM


I do have read some of it, including that statement. I do believe this story to be symbolic.
Although you're right: the basic belief of humans developing intelligence, and a sense of good and evil, goes right against that bible quote and story, which states that humans were innocent, but they ate from the tree which gave them knowledge. It may have been a explanation, but I agree that this is problematic.
As you might tell, I am more taking a neutral stance of doubt, rather then having grounded beliefs. I'm not here in this forum to defend Christianity, I I'm trying to discuss matters that concern me and learn.
And about base behaviour: General humans behaviour is based on A upbringing and B biological factors. Well, I'm talking about the B. It's generally a fact that all humans share some stereotypical behaviour and traits. That's what I meant.

Replies to this message:
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Kairyu
Member (Idle past 204 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 35 of 40 (580616)
09-10-2010 10:28 AM


I do not exactly know how all traits work. But I am suspecting a few of these traits to be amoral. Just look at the things a humans can do when (s)he's in love with somebody, or just sexually attracted. Domination behaviour also occurs. Anger(and irrational behavior because of it) is also a big one. Basically some animals traits that are still there in altered form. We might be able to suppress it to a extent, but it's there.
I are fair from educated(in fact I'm only 18 years old), this is the best answer I can give.
In regards on your second part, I am curious at your exact beliefs. I'm still not sure if your agree with me or not.
Do you believe humans to be amoral or moral? Are we really so different and above animals? We might possess high intelligence, but could it be that behind that, some of our behavior and actions are still caused by lingering amoral instincts, including ''sinful'' behavior? And if I suppose this problem is real, how can you rationally explain it?
By taking the bible literally, and pointing to the fall? Or by dismissing a large amount of christian thought(like you seem to do), or even take a purely naturalistic worldview without design? Or was it all part of gods plan? But if that's so, then I have some possible problems with it
First of all, we do have the (symbolic, but still.. inspired) adam and eve story that, as you explain it, has humanity seizing knowledge of morality against God's will
And also... if it was a plan, god also would have foreseen sin arising. But yet, he seems to be disappointed in humans. Numerous stories in the bible point to this. Not to mention a few instances of a ''lake of fire'' are mentioned. And of course Jesus's sacrifice to cleanse this sin. I'm okay with that, but why make humans that would be sinful in the first place?
So basically, either this isn't, or we should be fully expected to suppress it. (Although, once again, most of humanity doesn't)
Otherwise I keep running into trouble with a theistic evolution/old earth belief.

Replies to this message:
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Kairyu
Member (Idle past 204 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 37 of 40 (581095)
09-13-2010 4:16 PM


It seems you take large esteem into human free will. I do as well(although I am interested in the question how much free will we actually have, how it works,etc, but that's another story.) . I am very much against doing the wrong stuff.
It's just the general view you give of humans... Well. It's no excuse to be evil, far from it, but does if morality is a human construct, does that point to us being designed? Does human behavior makes sense, as in being created by a perfect god? That's what I have been questioning.

Replies to this message:
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