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Author | Topic: Biblically, Was Adam The First Man? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The story talking about one man, doesn't mean he was the first man created on planet Earth. The stories don't give us that information. They are culture specific stories, not planetary. The cultural perspective is supported by the fact that Cain takes a wife. I idea that Cain married one of his sisters is not supported by the stories and goes against God's own laws that God presents later. quote:I only noticed Paul speaking of Adam as the first man, of course, Paul also said Jesus is the second man. Given Paul's creativeness, it is hard to know if he means that Adam was the very first man created on the planet or had a more theological point in mind. Jesus did not speak of Adam as the first man or his disciples. If I have missed something, please provide the verses to support your position. The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:Referencing a fictional character to make a very real point, doesn't make the fictional character real or mean the speaker feels the character is real. Besides, the argument made by Jesus concerning marriage doesn't really make sense. (With a Valid Divorce, Remarriage is Not Adultery) Actually it is more likely that Genesis 1 was written to fit the Jewish Sabbath laws. The creation stories are foundational myths. They are stories that are written to explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon. Genesis 1 was probably written during the reign of Hezekiah (c. 715 and 686 BCE) who made substantial religious reforms. As far as what the audience understood, remember there were various religions among the Semitic people. So not so much the creation of the Jewish Nation, which is later through Abraham, but the creation of the Semitic people. That's why the creation story is not crucial to the Jewish religion. Abraham is the beginning of the Jewish Nation.
quote:The stories don't tell us that. Genesis 2 is the older story. When we conflate the stories, we are then creating our own creation story. Each author had a point to the story. Don't take that away. quote:Another assumption not supported by the stories. IMO, tribes had more of a tunnel vision and not a planetary vision. The stories were made for the tribe, not the planet and we alter them to fit our religious needs today. The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:That would mean we would have to understand what the Bible authors were trying to "teach" their audience. quote:Psalms are songs, which are poems. The songwriter is praising God. The comments in the song don't really tell us what the author believed concerning Genesis 1. For the last century, clergy have known that the authors of the 4 gospels are unknown, but many still teach that Mark, Matthew, Luke and John wrote the gospels. What one understands and what one writes in a poem/song (or teaches) aren't necessarily the same. quote:Is that what Paul actually meant? 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. Notice that Jesus is the second man. Was Jesus really the second man created? His audience would know that Jesus wasn't actually the second man created. So Paul is making a spiritual point.
Commentary the second man is the Lord from heaven; as Adam was the first man, Christ is the second man; and these two are spoken of, as if they were the only two men in the world; because as the former was the head and representative of all his natural posterity, so the latter is the head and representative of all his spiritual offspring The Genesis stories don't tell us that Adam the actual first human created.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Not really that obvious. Cain was afraid anyone who found him would kill him.Cain took a wife. Cain built a city and named it Enoch. ABE: Genesis 1:27 also shows that the author didn't view God as creating just one man and one woman. This later author viewed God as creating mankind with no specific number given. God made them male and female. Edited by purpledawn, : ABE
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Erets and adamah are not the planet. (Not The Planet) The story doesn't tell us that Adam was the first man on the planet or the first living life form on the planet.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Aside from the obvious that jar mentioned, it also means that the creation wasn't the main point of that story. A storyteller brings in the pieces that build on the point or moral he is trying to make. Just like when I apply for an executive secretary position, I don't bring up my aluminum siding skills. They are irrelevant to the interview for that job. We have to remember that this story was probably told in a tribal setting. Most people were illiterate. They weren't checking details after the story and the Genesis 1 story wasn't written yet. I'm sure the storyteller had an answer for anyone who did ask about fish or the seas. The lack of fish or oceans in the story, does not make erets or adamah encompass the entire planet.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:We aren't going to get anywhere until you make it clear whether you are using earth as in planet or earth and in land/region. quote:The most you can say from the story is the first man/life form in the land or region. quote:Irrelevant. As I said, the lack of fish or oceans in the story, does not make erets or adamah encompass the entire planet. So the storyteller is not referring to the planet and Cain took a wife. The story doesn't tell us that Adam was the first man on the planet. The information just isn't there.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Great, we aren't talking about the planet. quote:Genesis 2 doesn't tell us there were no seas. Seas weren't part of the story. quote:Not the planet, so the land is limited to the areas known by the audience. The story doesn't encompass the planet. quote:Neither did I if you look at what you quoted. He had to be with her to have sex with her. Cain had a wife. quote:You're losing it. I have no idea what your point is concerning Cain.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The story doesn't give you that information. It isn't the point of the story. The garden is the setting for the story. quote:You can yell all you want, but if you are referring to the planet, then use the word planet. Unfortunately erets and adamah do not refer to the planet or all existing land beyond the knowledge of the storyteller. If you want to continue that discussion, then please go to the thread I referenced in Message 31 for further discussion. Not The Planet Show evidence there that the word refers to the planet or regions beyond the audiences knowledge. quote:"Took a wife" is an idiom for getting married. The story doesn't tell us that Adam was the first humanoid on the planet. At the time Genesis 2 was probably written, the audience wouldn't have understood it to mean the entire planet. If you have evidence that they did, please present it in the other thread. At most we can infer by the story that Adam may have been the first semitic man. (Message 18)
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Exactly, we are discussing the Biblical account found n the Bible not in the musings of purpledawn or ICANT. quote:Literal or otherwise, it still doesn't support your position. The word erets and adamah don't refer to the planet Earth. Literally the story is referring to areas known to man at the time. As I said, if you wish to argue that they refer to the planet and show me otherwise, then go to the appropriate thread.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Since you apparently don't get the point that continuing this issue is off topic and to take it to the other thread, you can find my answer to your post in the other thread entitled: Not The Planet.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The point is that you don't actually know what the authors believed concerning the stories. Referring to a fictional story in an attempt to make a real world point, doesn't automatically mean the author thought the fictional story was real or literal.
Secular Example: Gordon Gekko is a fictional character and the main character and antagonist of the 1987 film Wall Street by director Oliver Stone. Gekko was portrayed by actor-producer Michael Douglas, in a performance that won him an Oscar for Best Actor.
Gekko has become a symbol in popular culture for unrestrained greed (with the signature line, "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good"), often in fields outside corporate finance.
On October 8, 2008, the character was referenced in a speech by the Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd in his speech "The Children of Gordon Gekko" concerning the Financial crisis of 2007-2010. Rudd stated It is perhaps time now to admit that we did not learn the full lessons of the greed-is-good ideology. And today we are still cleaning up the mess of the 21st-century children of Gordon Gekko.[8] On July 28, 2009, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone cited Gekko's greed is good slogan in a speech to the Italian senate, saying that the free market had been replaced by a greed market, and also blamed such a mentality for the 2007-2008 financial crisis.[9] Are the gentlemen who referenced Gekko saying that the movie was a factual account and Gordon Gekko is not a fictional character? No. Those who have seen the movie know he is fictional and understand the point being made. When people don't know or have lost touch with the story, then it is more difficult for them to understand the point. That is much of the problem with the Bible. We are far removed from the culture and the lessons taught by the stories. That's why we have to understand the stories and teachings in their historic setting. Then we can see that the Bible doesn't really support the concept that Adam was the first male on the planet Earth. The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary
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