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Author Topic:   Problems with being an Atheist (or Evolutionist)
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 166 of 276 (581101)
09-13-2010 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by riVeRraT
09-13-2010 3:57 PM


right, you don't believe there is a god, that is your belief.
Is not believing in Santa Claus your belief system? Is not believing in Vishnu your belief system?
Or is a belief system based on what you have a positive belief in? When asked for your belief system do you list the thousands of gods you don't believe in, or do you list the one god you do believe in?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 167 of 276 (581102)
09-13-2010 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by riVeRraT
09-13-2010 3:54 PM


Science included? I think so.
Science has a method for improving what it's right about, and finding what it's wrong about. I see no reason to take the opinions about reality of anything that doesn't have such a method seriously.
Stile, my problems with atheism, and or atheists, is that they pretend to not believe in something, for one.
What does not believing in something really entail? For my part, it's really not that I don't believe in god(s), it's just that I believe in something that doesn't leave room for them.
2. they say they won't subscribe to a god because of lack of evidence, when the bible clearly states that it is by faith that you get to know God.
Yeah, that particular piece is a sizeable part of the reason I find the Christian notion of God so unacceptable. No, I will not have faith. Faith is a cop-out, it is a shoddy alternative to knowledge, it is what you have when you don't know something. Parading it around as a grand virtue is obscene*.
3. they say they don't have a problem with people having faith (so long as they are not doing harm to anyone) then go on to compare faith in god to santa claus, or the easter bunny. You are not respecting people when you do that, you are insulting them.
Outside of arguments about religion I tend to extend every respect to other people's beliefs. But if you're going to get into an argument about it, then, yeah, I don't see the difference. I don't think theism is an philosophical idea inherently deserving of my respect, I think that robbed of its history, no-one would take the idea any more seriously than we take the Easter Bunny.
4. they resort to history books and point out all the bad things that were done in the name of god/s
The problem with religious history is not that bad things have been done in the name of God, it's that there's no sign of those who believe one thing or the other behaving any better than anyone else (with the exception of the Quakers who, frankly, rock on toast; seriously, has there ever been a group of people with such a consistent history of being on the right side of moral arguments?).

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 Message 163 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2010 3:54 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 168 of 276 (581104)
09-13-2010 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by riVeRraT
09-13-2010 3:54 PM


Stile, my problems with atheism, and or atheists, is that they pretend to not believe in something, for one.
I pretend not to believe in sniggerwumps. How about you? Do you pretend not to believe in sniggerwumps?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 169 of 276 (581108)
09-13-2010 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by riVeRraT
09-13-2010 3:57 PM


right, you don't believe there is a god, that is your belief.
It's doubly frustrating to explain this to an atheist.
Do you think that you might find it less frustrating if you stopped lying to athiests about their beliefs or lack thereof?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 170 of 276 (581109)
09-13-2010 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by riVeRraT
09-13-2010 3:57 PM


right, you don't believe there is a god, that is your belief.
It's doubly frustrating to explain this to an atheist.
not believing in something is NOT a belief, if you want to know what an atheist or most of us believe in its fact we believe in things that can be mesured, tested and observed. if we are unsure of something we hypothesise and try to prove if our hypothesis is correct or if it is wrong in either case we are happy because it gives us more understanding of how things work we are curius we ask questions when we find the anwsers we ask more questions.
theists only belive you dont want to use your brain you are not interested on how the world works how it was made you are content whit simple anwsers made by people that had very simple understanding of how the world works, and if someone proves you wrong you hate them for shaking your beliefs, some actualy try to lie to themselves and others whit fact fabrication or ignoring them so their own believes and the believes of their friends do not get shaken.

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Nij
Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 171 of 276 (581118)
09-13-2010 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Dr Jack
09-13-2010 5:16 PM


The problem with religious history is not that bad things have been done in the name of God, it's that there's no sign of those who believe one thing or the other behaving any better than anyone else (with the exception of the Quakers who, frankly, rock on toast; seriously, has there ever been a group of people with such a consistent history of being on the right side of moral arguments?).
emphasis added
The Tibetan Buddhists? And behold, Buddhism is generally atheistic* too.
*In that belief in a god is not common nor really necessary.
Edited by Nij, : Fix coding.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 172 of 276 (581306)
09-14-2010 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by riVeRraT
09-13-2010 3:54 PM


Stile, my problems with atheism, and or atheists, is that they pretend to not believe in something, for one.
In general, we apply a simple, logical position to any questions about supernatural or non-materialistic entities: When those claiming it can provide proof, we'll evaluate the evidence.
You clearly recognize that:
riVeRaT writes:
the bible clearly states that it is by faith that you get to know God.
That's just it, when you apply the above to your religion, anyones religion, or for that matter, anyones claim, you are not applying faith. You are critically evaluating evidence. If you have none, other than "faith," it won't impress.
The thing to remember is, YOU apply this same method of evaluation to other religions or supernatural claims. You just happen to believe in one of the many that exist.
You are not respecting people when you do that, you are insulting them.
I don't go around insulting people and their faith, but when you come to a forum to debate this subject, thick skin is a requirement on your part. We won't hold back because that's where the fun is. And neither do you, RR.
So then don't be hypocrites, just like people need to take moral responsibility, and responsibility for their own actions, then atheists need to stop using people's irrational beliefs in god/s to not believe.
This isn't done without reason, it is done when the religion had sole influence on the evil action. If you strap a bomb to your chest and blow up a church because, according to your interpretation of your religious book you have to because others are the enemy, then the religion had influence.
No atheist does an evil act because according to them there is no evidence for supernatural entities. That would mean EVERY supernatural entity.
Is there really someone killing people because they don't believe there is enough evidence to support the belief that Zues exist?
Largely I find the logic in being an atheist to be hypocritical
And yet you apply our same logic to other faiths for which you have no belief for. We just go one more than you and include Christianity.
- Oni

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 173 of 276 (581349)
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Atheism IS a belief
I am not going to reply to everyone individually. I see no need for you people to repeat answers. I am well aware of the atheists stance on "the lack of belief". However, atheism by definition is not someone who doesn't believe in something. Atheism, in a narrow sense is specifically the position that there are no deities. That is a belief. You cannot dis-prove God's existence, so you believe there are no gods. Don't be hypocrites.
We've already gone over in another thread, that the lack of evidence of anything, does not prove it's non-existence. There are still plenty of things yet to be discovered, and they all exist. We may not possess the methods for detecting those things, or are unable to see them yet, but they do exist.
If I took a cube, and pulled a perfect vacuum on it, I could easily prove with 99.99% certainty that there is nothing material inside of it. If you said to me, there was a god inside of it, I would have no way of detecting that god, since we cannot detect things that do not exist in our dimension, or however gods exist, so I would have to take it on faith that there is nothing there, because I believe there is nothing there.
Until the day comes that we have every instrument to detect every single thing in the universe, and we have categorized, and recorded every single thing in the universe, and can predict with 100% certainty that this or that will happen, we take things on faith.
There are varying levels of faith. It takes almost no faith to believe the sun will rise tomorrow, but a lot of faith to believe in a god.
Like Mr. Jack says
quote:
Science has a method for improving what it's right about, and finding what it's wrong about.
A true scientifically minded person, or logically minded person would never be an atheist. He would always leave room open for further interpretation. At best he would be agnostic.
People do not believe in Santa Claus, or the Easter bunny, because we already have proof that those are just stories made up to invoke the minds of children. No one is actually going around telling adults that Santa Claus does indeed exist. It takes almost no faith for me to believe he doesn't exist. I am sick and tired of people using them as examples. It's hypocritical, and insulting.
Onifire, insulting someone, and being insulted are two different things. I don't get insulted, be I do recognize when I am being insulted. My skin IS think. I get pissed because the supposedly rational minds of atheist, aren't so rational when throwing around insults. If you have a valid argument about something, there is not need to resort to insults to explain your position.
Because of that, and the way atheist come across, atheist seem like nothing more than pissed off believers, who actually know God exists in their hearts, and they just want to deny Him so they can live by their own rules. They appear as hypocrites, something I can't stand. (talking about the angry atheist, not every atheist)
Also people who take it on faith that god wants them to go and blow people up because of something they read in a book, are just doing what they would have done regardless of the book. It is what is in their hearts already. If I read something like that in the bible, I would have enough common sense to know it was wrong, and then it would make me question my faith in that book. So again, responsibility falls on the person.
Mr.Jack, faith is not a cop-out. You have faith in everything you believe in, and you believe in stuff. It takes faith to accept anything in life, just different levels of it. You want to rely on empirical evidence, and knowledge, but those things are limited, and ever changing as you stated. So the thing you think is right today, can change tomorrow. That seems ridiculous to me, more ridiculous that believe in most of the "grand virtues" of religion. So before you go around thinking your way is the best way, look at things in perspective, and leave yourself open to a better interpretation. Live by your own rules.
You could rob theism of it's history, and you would gain respect IMO. The history of theism, is pretty shady. The philosophy of what Jesus taught us is not shady. There is a difference between God, and religion.
You say:
"MrJack" writes:
The problem with religious history is not that bad things have been done in the name of God, it's that there's no sign of those who believe one thing or the other behaving any better than anyone else (with the exception of the Quakers who, frankly, rock on toast; seriously, has there ever been a group of people with such a consistent history of being on the right side of moral arguments?).
I couldn't agree with you more. What we have here is people, just being people. Theist or not. That is why Jesus taught us that it doesn't matter what you profess with your mouth. It is that reason that I cannot personally judge who is going to heaven or not. I am not going to judge why people become atheists, because we don't always hear the whole story. I am sure there are people who become atheist because of negative experiences with religion. I believe in accountability.
frako, I would love to respond to you, but you are way off the beaten path, and your spelling sucks.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 176 by dwise1, posted 09-15-2010 3:44 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 177 by onifre, posted 09-15-2010 6:03 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 178 by Taq, posted 09-15-2010 6:21 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 09-15-2010 7:02 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 181 by Dr Jack, posted 09-16-2010 5:31 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 183 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-18-2010 5:50 AM riVeRraT has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 174 of 276 (581370)
09-15-2010 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
You cannot dis-prove God's existence
You can prove the nonexistence of God by the same means you can prove the nonexistence of anything else that doesn't exist, once it's been established what we mean when we say "God".
There are still plenty of things yet to be discovered, and they all exist.
How do you know? Maybe the ones you think exist, don't. Maybe the undiscovered things you think don't exist - like the proof of evolution that would instantly convince every creationist - actually do exist. Until there's evidence for those things, speculation or assumption about their properties or existence is going to be necessarily and inherently erroneous.
I would have no way of detecting that god, since we cannot detect things that do not exist in our dimension
How do you propose to detect, as opposed to just assuming, that gods are extradimensional?
He would always leave room open for further interpretation. At best he would be agnostic.
But agnostics are atheists, and atheists are not always people who insist that they are 100% certain that there is absolutely nothing that could be called a "god." Many atheists are simply people who believe that the evidence supports the provisional conclusion, subject to modification in the face of future evidence (like any scientific conclusion).
Why couldn't someone who lives as if there is no God, says that in all likelihood there is no God, and really believes the evidence as it is understood at this moment really supports the nonexistence of God, call themselves an "atheist"? Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Even Mother Theresa wasn't 100% sure of the existence of God but she got to call herself a "Christian." If we're suddenly restricting membership only to the 100% convinced let's apply that across the board, ok? No double standards, please.
No one is actually going around telling adults that Santa Claus does indeed exist.
Except of course the editors of the New York Sun:
quote:
Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.
Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.
Funny, I think I heard Francis Collins say the same thing, once, only instead of "Santa Claus" he said "Jesus Christ." It's funny how the arguments are completely applicable either way.
I am sick and tired of people using them as examples.
Then learn to refute it, Rat. Both Santa Claus and Jesus Christ are myths taught to children. The only difference is that people are expected to grow out of Santa Claus. They should be expected to grow out of Jesus Christ.
Because of that, and the way atheist come across, atheist seem like nothing more than pissed off believers, who actually know God exists in their hearts, and they just want to deny Him so they can live by their own rules.
That's never made any sense, especially given than Christianity doesn't prevent you from living by your own rules. I mean, look at Ted Haggard or the Republican caucus. Christianity is absolutely no obstacle to using drugs, cheating on your wife, self-dealing, robbery, corruption, or any other vice. Indeed, most Christians simply convince themselves "it's what God wants me to do" and off they go, cheating and robbing people.
The notion that somehow Christianity is able to restrain people's immoral impulses should have evaporated during the first Catholic sexual abuse scandal, but here we are, learning about decades of sex abuse by Christianity's most organized cabal of so-called holy men. Surely if Christianity is able to cockblock anybody it would be the people most steeped in it? The men whose every waking hour is supposed to be given over to service of the Lord? Funny how the vaunted power of Christianity to prevent people from "living by their own rules" couldn't protect hundreds of Irish orphans from being raped.
I agree with you - it's just people being people. Since Christianity can't stop people from being people, it's absurd to suggest that atheists deny God so they can do whatever they want. Belief in God has never been able to stop people from doing what they want, so why go to all the trouble of being an atheist? The very existence of atheists, once again, proves you wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 09-15-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 175 of 276 (581372)
09-15-2010 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
riVeRraT writes:
However, atheism by definition is not someone who doesn't believe in something. Atheism, in a narrow sense is specifically the position that there are no deities.
That's too restrictive.
The term a-theism literally means without a god. It applies to anybody who lives his life without paying any attention to God. That includes those who assert that there are no deities. But it also includes the person who religiously goes to "church" every Sunday carrying his "bible", except that his "church" is the local country club and his "bible" is a bag of golf clubs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 09-15-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 176 of 276 (581441)
09-15-2010 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
I am not going to reply to everyone individually. I see no need for you people to repeat answers. I am well aware of the atheists stance on "the lack of belief". However, atheism by definition is not someone who doesn't believe in something. Atheism, in a narrow sense is specifically the position that there are no deities. That is a belief. You cannot dis-prove God's existence, so you believe there are no gods. Don't be hypocrites.
We're not being hypocrites. We're being completely honest with you. You are the one playing word games. Atheists believe many different things and even have a wide range of beliefs regarding the gods. The only thing that atheists have in common with each other is that they do not accept the god-stories of theists; they do not believe that you possess the truth. By applying an over-restrictive and artificially narrow definition, you only succeed in eliminating vast numbers of atheist by redefining them through word-magic -- but you only eliminated us in your own mind; we still exist and we still are atheists.
And the second thing that atheists have in common with each other is that theists hate us and believe in their profound ignorance that they know infinitely better that we know ourselves what we think and what we believe.
... , so you believe there are no gods.
Au contraire! Of course the gods exist. They are human inventions devised to attempt to explain the inexplicable. The same as the supernatural.
Now, even if the supernatural were to exist, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it? And even if supernatural entities were to exist, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it? And even if some supernatural entity were to exist that could in any manner be considered a god, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it?
So when theists trot out their detailed pronouncements about the nature of their god(s) and the wishes and desires of their god(s) and what their god(s) have planned for us and exactly what their god(s) pronouncements mean, how are we to believe that those stories are all true? That all those fallible humans got every single detail right? Let's face it, even if ancient man had gotten a glimpse of such a "Supreme Being", how could the resultant highly detailed theology be completely correct?
We do not accept your theology. Period. That is all that we all have in common. The rest of what we think and believe is up to each individual and varies from one individual atheist to another. For example, I just gave you a description of how I view matters. Maybe some atheists also viewed it that way, and some didn't but can agree with me, and some don't agree with me.
You cannot dictate to us what we think and believe because you have no idea what each one of us actually thinks or believes. So please stop trying.
frako, I would love to respond to you, but you are way off the beaten path, and your spelling sucks.
He is not a native English speaker. How well do you write in his own native language?
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 09-15-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 177 of 276 (581460)
09-15-2010 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
A true scientifically minded person, or logically minded person would never be an atheist. He would always leave room open for further interpretation. At best he would be agnostic.
Why? Why should I consider the possibility of a being that human's imagined as being valid? The default position is, there are no supernatural entities, nor does that word represent an actual function of reality - Because, there is no evidence for either. I start at zero and work my way up the scale of belief as more and more evidence is brought forward. But as of yet, there is no evidence, not in the slightest, so I remain at position zero, also refered to as atheism.
An agnostic has in some way accept the possibility of these imagined beings. An agnostic has said to him/her self, maybe one of these humans got it right. Maybe one of them has actually nail a concept that might possibily exist. They have also recognized that no evidence exists to support such a concept, but maybe it can exist. It's not impossibile as I've been told.
Personally, I remain unconviced, not that something unknown can possibily exist - that I agree with, unknown things may exist and one day be known - but unconvinced of the possibility that a human being, here on Earth, somehow had an experience that supported the notion that things that are not bound by or derived from the laws of nature can exist. Frankly, how the fuck could anyone possibly assume such an illogical thing based on meer experiences?
Because of that, and the way atheist come across, atheist seem like nothing more than pissed off believers, who actually know God exists in their hearts, and they just want to deny Him so they can live by their own rules.
Do I seem like that to you? 'Cause I'll caution you that that would be insulting.
You are also doing what most theist do, you only accpet one god and to YOU all atheist are rejecting your god and his rules. But there are thousands of other gods rejected equally by theist and atheists, we just go one more than you. You are an atheist like me for any other concept of god that isn't the Christian version. Are you denying the existence of all those other gods and their rules so that you may live your life by your own rules? No, right. So why fling that crap on us for doing the same thing you're doing?
We are all atheists, RR.
Also people who take it on faith that god wants them to go and blow people up because of something they read in a book, are just doing what they would have done regardless of the book.
If that were true, then could you name me one suicide bomber from the religion of Buddhism? Or Jainism? Or Hinduism? Or Christianity? Judaism? No...just Muslims. So it is an isolated problem and one associated solely with the Muslim faith. The bomber is not acting on his/her own beliefs, but the beliefs of their religion.
If I read something like that in the bible, I would have enough common sense to know it was wrong, and then it would make me question my faith in that book.
Excuse me but the Bible warns it's followers to not pick and choose, nor to question the word of god.
- Oni
PS. Be cool with frako, english isn't his first language but seems to be able to defend himself quite well.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

"Noam Chomsky is a liberal. He's like the nation's most infamous liberal, for Christ's sake."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 09-15-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 8:48 PM onifre has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 178 of 276 (581466)
09-15-2010 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
However, atheism by definition is not someone who doesn't believe in something. Atheism, in a narrow sense is specifically the position that there are no deities.
I would agree that a majority of atheists are not sitting on the fence as to the existence of a deity. Atheists have been waiting since the dawn of time for theists to present us evidence that their gods exist. None has been presented. So we don't expect that there is a god, and for good reason. However, we don't have an absolute belief that there are no gods. If Zeus appeared in front of me I would certainly be surprised, and I certainly wouldn't be expecting it. However, I would absolutely accept that Zeus exists.
If I took a cube, and pulled a perfect vacuum on it, I could easily prove with 99.99% certainty that there is nothing material inside of it. If you said to me, there was a god inside of it, I would have no way of detecting that god, since we cannot detect things that do not exist in our dimension, or however gods exist, so I would have to take it on faith that there is nothing there, because I believe there is nothing there.
That is not analogous to the atheist position. We say that no one has detected God. Therefore, there is no compelling reason to believe that God does exist. Could there be a God? Sure, but we really don't expect God to exist given the absence of any detectable evidence for the existence of God. This doesn't require faith to state that there is no evidence for the existence of God.
To go back to your cube analogy, it doesn't take faith to claim that there are no known tests that detected anything in the cube, God or otherwise. We would then ask what evidence the theist had for claiming that God is in the cube. After the theist is incapable of coming up with the evidence we are back at square one, no evidence for God. There we sit, waiting for evidence of God.
A true scientifically minded person, or logically minded person would never be an atheist. He would always leave room open for further interpretation. At best he would be agnostic.
A true scientifically minded person, or logically minded person, would never assert that a being exists for which there is no evidence. Therefore, they would be an atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 09-15-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 179 of 276 (581473)
09-15-2010 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
riVeRraT writes:
Because of that, and the way atheist come across, atheist seem like nothing more than pissed off believers, who actually know God exists in their hearts, and they just want to deny Him so they can live by their own rules.
I live by higher standards than a lot of theists do. If there was a god, I expect that a lot of people would reject his rules because they're not good enough.
I also expect that a lot of people wouldn't want to go to heaven if it's full of angry theists.

"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 09-15-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
Nij
Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 180 of 276 (581524)
09-15-2010 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by crashfrog
09-15-2010 10:18 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
Hi crash, I would like to point out one thing:
Not all agnostics are atheists, although I would say a majority are: most theists are quite definite in their belief. Agnostics are people who don't think it's possible to know for sure. Atheists are people that don't believe a god exists. I, for example, am both. I know several people however, who are theist but agnostic. There are plenty of examples here of gnostic atheists and theists. All four combinations exist; being one does not imply being the other.
One can be a theist and still be agnostic: "I believe a god exists, despite there being no way to demonstrate that fact".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by crashfrog, posted 09-15-2010 10:18 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by crashfrog, posted 09-16-2010 8:51 PM Nij has not replied

  
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