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Author Topic:   Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2
Joseppi
Member (Idle past 3197 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 181 of 295 (581397)
09-15-2010 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by jar
09-15-2010 12:19 PM


Re: Chronology
jar said:
quote:
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
You use a lot of poor excuses.
I don't read or speak new speak so your argument here is silly.
Create...form...make.
These can share definitions.
And, they have definitions they don't share.
Spelling has nothing to do with what I said.

It is quite simple.
It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English and to re-translate as you wish so as to pretense one's self to be correct.
Others also don't realize that the LORD God who put the Bible together speaks perfect English and specifies all his terms and meanings.

Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 12:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 12:50 PM Joseppi has not yet responded
 Message 198 by ringo, posted 09-15-2010 1:59 PM Joseppi has not yet responded
 Message 207 by Theodoric, posted 09-15-2010 3:14 PM Joseppi has not yet responded
 Message 284 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2010 12:57 PM Joseppi has not yet responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 182 of 295 (581398)
09-15-2010 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN
09-15-2010 8:14 AM


Re: Oh yay, another one.
Hi NOMA,

Welcome to EvC.

NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN writes:

That said you dont need to be a bible scholar or fundamentalist to have a reading ability of an eleven year old.

A lot of people think an education or a degree qualifies them to understand the Bible. But the Bible declares that it is spiritually deserned.

Now I disagree with your presentation of what is written in Genesis chapter 1 and 2 and would love to discuss it with you.

I have a thread Here where I have affirmed that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2.

If you care to discuss this topic with a litteral fundamentalist please join me there, and refute my affirmations.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 8:14 AM NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 6:08 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 183 of 295 (581400)
09-15-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 11:29 AM


Re: Capitalized.
Hi Joseppi,

Joseppi writes:

Heaven is not capitalized until the eighth verse.
The heaven and the earth were created in the beginning recorded in the first verse.
The heaven in that first verse is singular and there was no division into the other two heavens at that time.
Heaven in capitalized in verse eighth to inform the believer that God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there.

I did study Biblical Hebrew in Bible college.

The original had no vowels, no spaces, no verses, no chapters and no capitals.

Any capital letters in the OT was provided by the translators.

ANy chapters and verses was provided by the translators.

Any vowels was provided by the Masorets.

BTW the throne of God will not exist on this earth. It will exist on the New Earth in the New Heaven of Revelation.

The throne of David will be restored and Jesus will rule over the earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 11:29 AM Joseppi has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 184 of 295 (581401)
09-15-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 12:25 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
You said:

Joseppi writes:

Heaven is not capitalized until the eighth verse.
The heaven and the earth were created in the beginning recorded in the first verse.
The heaven in that first verse is singular and there was no division into the other two heavens at that time.
Heaven in capitalized in verse eighth to inform the believer that God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there.

First, Hebrew did not have either case (upper and lower case) or punctuation so there was no distinction based on capitalization.

Second, there is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there." That is just stuff you are making up.

Here is Genesis 1:

quote:
Genesis 1

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


There is nothing in there to support your assertion.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 12:25 PM Joseppi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:00 PM jar has responded
 Message 190 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:17 PM jar has responded
 Message 226 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 9:38 PM jar has responded

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 3197 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 185 of 295 (581402)
09-15-2010 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN
09-15-2010 2:24 AM


Re: And your input to clear up the mater is...?
Noma&Nopaakaan Orphan said:
quote:
Not until the orignal poster proves that they actually do conflict, no.
This is a good point. And, athough one might pick at this poster for attitude, nevertheless, an intelligent person would admit that the OP was merely the pontification of a popular assumption, since, as the above quoted poster said, where's the evidence?
As for me the evidence is in English, and is found in the Bible I read and it isn't difficult to understand it as some here seem to find it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 2:24 AM NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 186 of 295 (581403)
09-15-2010 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 12:33 PM


Re: Chronology
Huh?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 12:33 PM Joseppi has not yet responded

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 3197 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 187 of 295 (581407)
09-15-2010 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
09-15-2010 12:47 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
quote:
First, Hebrew did not have either case (upper and lower case) or punctuation so there was no distinction based on capitalization.
I don't believe the Hebrews had no way to express titles, names etc.
Your idea that if Hebrews didn't capitalize letters then no translated text should have them is ludicrous.

quote:
Second, there is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there." That is just stuff you are making up.
You would have a better argument than, assuming I made something up, if you explained why it is indeed capitalized. And further, why you assume it means nothing.
I didn't expect you to grasp the understanding since you may not be well read with respect to the Bible. And, you seem to have great difficulty with a plethora of simple English usage.
Anyway, the Hebrew this or that argument carries no weight with me, because I think it is certain that you have no understanding of Hebrew comparable to any of the translators of the Bible I read.

Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 12:47 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:16 PM Joseppi has responded
 Message 192 by ICANT, posted 09-15-2010 1:29 PM Joseppi has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17276
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 188 of 295 (581408)
09-15-2010 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 11:38 AM


Re: Chronology
Joseppi writes:

When three similar appearing words are found in an English text that was written by one who knows English, the use of the words are defined not by the redundancies that they share but the differences as per context.


On the contrary, parallelism is a common rhetorical device in English as it is in Hebrew. It's often used to show subtle differences of viewpoint but not fundamental differences of meaning.

Another example is:

quote:
Amos 5:24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
The differences are subtle, not fundamental.

Joseppi writes:

In that quote of Isaiah 43:7 ...
created means the soul was brought into existence.
formed: means the body was shaped and constructed.
made: means the God did all the work associated with the final result. Which includes bringing the man to life.


Isaiah 43 doesn't say anything of the sort. That's just an interpretation that you're putting on it.

Joseppi writes:

It isn't saying, I made him, I made him, yea, I made him.


In fact, that's exactly what it's saying, classical parallelism.

Joseppi writes:

The semicolon is the clue that the last clause merely concludes the thought of the preceeding clauses.


Please stop trying to use English punctuation to understand a Hebrew text. The semicolon isn't even there in most translations.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 11:38 AM Joseppi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 2:01 PM ringo has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 189 of 295 (581409)
09-15-2010 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 1:00 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
I don't believe the Hebrews had no way to express titles, names etc.
Your idea that if Hebrews didn't capitalize letters then no translated text should have them is ludicrous.

I never said that translated texts should not use capitals, I said that the Hebrews did not use case sensitive letters or punctuation.

You would have a better argument than, assuming I made something up, if you explained why it is indeed capitalized. And further, why you assume it means nothing.
I didn't expect you to grasp the understanding since you may not be well read with respect to the Bible. And, you seem to have great difficulty with a plethora of simple English usage.
Anyway, the Hebrew this or that argument carries no weight with me, because I think it is certain that you have no understanding of Hebrew comparable to any of the translators of the Bible I read.

Please look and you will see that I included the full text of Genesis 1. There is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there." That is just stuff you are making up.


בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:00 PM Joseppi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:41 PM jar has responded

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 3197 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 190 of 295 (581410)
09-15-2010 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
09-15-2010 12:47 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
Jar said:
quote:
Second, there is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there." That is just stuff you are making up.
Concerning putting the throne of God on the earth. Well, that is what the end of the matter is all about as the book of the Revelation reveals, and with which it closes the Bible.

Solomon was fully aware of this and speaks of it in his discourse and prayer at the dedication of the temple.
One reason David was said to be a man after God's own heart is because David realized that building a permanent temple was a wise thing to do.

Previous to that, in the course of revelations from God, when God brought the children of Abraham out from Egypt by use of Moses, then he taught them they were a church and he commanded Moses to build the tabernacle tent that moved from place to place.

In the same way that the dove found no rest until it found an olive branch, and in the same way the dove that was the manifestation of the Holy Ghost rested upon the man Jesus of Nazareth, so, the tabernacle of God moved about until a resting place was found.

This is one of the main revelations of the Bible. Which is why is noted so early in the message. For the temple of God, where his throne is, involves not only the physical manifestation of a final temple upon the earth, but also in the heart of them that receive him by faith.

So, your notion that there is nothing involved deeper than you have thus far surmised is simply, ignorance.

Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 12:47 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:21 PM Joseppi has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 191 of 295 (581412)
09-15-2010 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 1:17 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
Good grief. We are talking about Genesis 1 & 2.

I repeat, there is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to your assertion that "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there. "


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:17 PM Joseppi has not yet responded

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 192 of 295 (581413)
09-15-2010 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 1:00 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
Hi Joseppi,

Joseppi writes:

You would have a better argument than, assuming I made something up, if you explained why it is indeed capitalized.

It was capitalized because those who translated the Bible from Hebrew to English decided it should be capitalized.

It was not capitalized for any other reason.

So yep you are making things up.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:00 PM Joseppi has not yet responded

  
Joseppi
Member (Idle past 3197 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 193 of 295 (581414)
09-15-2010 1:29 PM


Someone asked about which heaven is which.

As Solomon said, the heaven, and the heaven of heavens, cannot contain God.

This is a quote that shows that the sky is one heaven, the outer space is another, and the heaven of heavens is where God's throne was originally and still is until after the great white throne judgment.

Genesis verse one is the heaven where God dwelt with his hosts of heaven, where the rebellion against God began.

The deep was a deep well in that heaven filled with many waters (metaphically means many opinions).
The earth was at the bottom of that deep place and sat as described in verse two, in darkness without light, void of life, and unformed as is a lump of clay awaiting a potter.

The earth was created at the same time as the heaven of verse one, because God was prepared with all his legal evidences before any rebellion against his throne ensued.

The earth was left in it's basest form and condition because by it's being the most base of all things created, it was the perfect legal device to prove that the seeming foolishness (as men think) and foolish things of God are wiser than any of the highminded rebels.

Thus, by setting his seal to the clay he evidences his truth's in the clay man, Jesus of Nazareth and thusly, legally exposes and disposes of all rebellion in an orderly way.

Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines.


Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:33 PM Joseppi has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31258
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 194 of 295 (581415)
09-15-2010 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Joseppi
09-15-2010 1:29 PM


But none of that is in Genesis 1.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:29 PM Joseppi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Joseppi, posted 09-15-2010 1:51 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 3197 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 195 of 295 (581417)
09-15-2010 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by jar
09-15-2010 1:16 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
quote:
I never said that translated texts should not use capitals, I said that the Hebrews did not use case sensitive letters or punctuation.
And I pointed out how your statement carried no logical weight. Get over it and move on.

quote:
Please look and you will see that I included the full text of Genesis 1.
And I appreciate anyone who publishes the Bible. thanks.
quote:
There is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there." That is just stuff you are making up.
And you are making up the notion that I'm making things up. You see? It's not an argument to make unsubstantiated claims.
In case you are not aware of this, I am pleased to inform you that the Bible is a teaching. That is why God created all things in six twenty-four hour days. He wasn't showing off. He could've done in no time at all. Or, he could've taken his sweet time. But, he did it in the manner described in Genesis to teach man a thing or two. Now I know this is of no interest to you but, that has nothing to do with the Bible. If you want to pretend nothing is being taught or meant and have concluded that it's all a fable then you are free to remain in the dark. It's your choice. But, as for any logical argument of merit? well...you haven't made any and it should be noted I think.
Anyone can make endless claims as to what they opinionate about whatever. so what? Opinions is that thing I care least about, so you're going to have to do better I think.

Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:16 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:55 PM Joseppi has responded

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