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Author Topic:   Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2
Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 175 of 295 (581380)
09-15-2010 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by ringo
08-30-2010 11:56 AM


Re: Chronology
ringo said: All three words mean the same thing.
And quoted Isaiah 43:7.
No three words mean the same in any language including English.
When three similar appearing words are found in an English text that was written by one who knows English, the use of the words are defined not by the redundancies that they share but the differences as per context.
In that quote of Isaiah 43:7 ...
created means the soul was brought into existence.
formed: means the body was shaped and constructed.
made: means the God did all the work associated with the final result. Which includes bringing the man to life.
It isn't saying, I made him, I made him, yea, I made him.
The semicolon is the clue that the last clause merely concludes the thought of the preceeding clauses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 08-30-2010 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 09-15-2010 1:14 PM Joseppi has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 177 of 295 (581391)
09-15-2010 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
08-30-2010 10:52 AM


Re: Chronology
quote:
ringo said: I'm sorry but you are simply wrong there. Please at least stop and think for a moment. Of course gravity is strong enough to hold things together. You do not drift off into space. It is gravity that holds you on the surface of this planet.
This is a very basic mistake that you are making here.
You don't drift off into space because the lump sum of the local gravity is high. This result occurs only after the lumping of matter has occurred not before.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 08-30-2010 10:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 12:19 PM Joseppi has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 179 of 295 (581393)
09-15-2010 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by greyseal
09-04-2010 3:01 PM


Re: Chronology
Greyseal said:
quote:
No, there's no magical forces, but gravity (whilst the weakest of the four known forces) certainly is powerful enough to pull planets together. Gravity keeps the sun burning, gravity pulled this planet and all other planets in this and all other star systems together. Gravity keeps our planet in the solar system, orbiting the sun, and it keeps the moon orbiting the earth. It may be a weak force, but it's all-pervasive throughout this universe.
The error is again quite obvious.
Gravity is the weakest force known. It can't pull together any dispersed matter that has more powerful forces acting upon them. The most notable being HEAT.
The orbiting of the sun, the attraction of the planets is due to the lumped sum value of their constituent matter. and, that is not the situation before there were such clumps of matter.
There is no known force by which one can explain the condensation of matter from a cloud into a clump.
Heat alone will disperse the cloud as is common experience concerning any kind of cloud. The vector momentum of the particles after cooling will not change since the attraction between greatly dispersed particles is of no consequence.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by greyseal, posted 09-04-2010 3:01 PM greyseal has replied

Replies to this message:
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Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 180 of 295 (581395)
09-15-2010 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by jar
09-15-2010 11:38 AM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
quote:
I'm sorry but there is NOTHING in the story to support that and in addition, guess what, Early Hebrew did not have cases, or even punctuation.
  —jar
You have not proved that there is nothing..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 11:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 12:47 PM Joseppi has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 181 of 295 (581397)
09-15-2010 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by jar
09-15-2010 12:19 PM


Re: Chronology
jar said:
quote:
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
You use a lot of poor excuses.
I don't read or speak new speak so your argument here is silly.
Create...form...make.
These can share definitions.
And, they have definitions they don't share.
Spelling has nothing to do with what I said.
It is quite simple.
It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English and to re-translate as you wish so as to pretense one's self to be correct.
Others also don't realize that the LORD God who put the Bible together speaks perfect English and specifies all his terms and meanings.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 12:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 12:50 PM Joseppi has not replied
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 Message 284 by arachnophilia, posted 12-09-2010 12:57 PM Joseppi has not replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 185 of 295 (581402)
09-15-2010 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN
09-15-2010 2:24 AM


Re: And your input to clear up the mater is...?
Noma&Nopaakaan Orphan said:
quote:
Not until the orignal poster proves that they actually do conflict, no.
This is a good point. And, athough one might pick at this poster for attitude, nevertheless, an intelligent person would admit that the OP was merely the pontification of a popular assumption, since, as the above quoted poster said, where's the evidence?
As for me the evidence is in English, and is found in the Bible I read and it isn't difficult to understand it as some here seem to find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, posted 09-15-2010 2:24 AM NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN has not replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 187 of 295 (581407)
09-15-2010 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
09-15-2010 12:47 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
quote:
First, Hebrew did not have either case (upper and lower case) or punctuation so there was no distinction based on capitalization.
I don't believe the Hebrews had no way to express titles, names etc.
Your idea that if Hebrews didn't capitalize letters then no translated text should have them is ludicrous.
quote:
Second, there is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there." That is just stuff you are making up.
You would have a better argument than, assuming I made something up, if you explained why it is indeed capitalized. And further, why you assume it means nothing.
I didn't expect you to grasp the understanding since you may not be well read with respect to the Bible. And, you seem to have great difficulty with a plethora of simple English usage.
Anyway, the Hebrew this or that argument carries no weight with me, because I think it is certain that you have no understanding of Hebrew comparable to any of the translators of the Bible I read.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 12:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:16 PM Joseppi has replied
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Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 190 of 295 (581410)
09-15-2010 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
09-15-2010 12:47 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
Jar said:
quote:
Second, there is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there." That is just stuff you are making up.
Concerning putting the throne of God on the earth. Well, that is what the end of the matter is all about as the book of the Revelation reveals, and with which it closes the Bible.
Solomon was fully aware of this and speaks of it in his discourse and prayer at the dedication of the temple.
One reason David was said to be a man after God's own heart is because David realized that building a permanent temple was a wise thing to do.
Previous to that, in the course of revelations from God, when God brought the children of Abraham out from Egypt by use of Moses, then he taught them they were a church and he commanded Moses to build the tabernacle tent that moved from place to place.
In the same way that the dove found no rest until it found an olive branch, and in the same way the dove that was the manifestation of the Holy Ghost rested upon the man Jesus of Nazareth, so, the tabernacle of God moved about until a resting place was found.
This is one of the main revelations of the Bible. Which is why is noted so early in the message. For the temple of God, where his throne is, involves not only the physical manifestation of a final temple upon the earth, but also in the heart of them that receive him by faith.
So, your notion that there is nothing involved deeper than you have thus far surmised is simply, ignorance.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 12:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:21 PM Joseppi has not replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 193 of 295 (581414)
09-15-2010 1:29 PM


Someone asked about which heaven is which.
As Solomon said, the heaven, and the heaven of heavens, cannot contain God.
This is a quote that shows that the sky is one heaven, the outer space is another, and the heaven of heavens is where God's throne was originally and still is until after the great white throne judgment.
Genesis verse one is the heaven where God dwelt with his hosts of heaven, where the rebellion against God began.
The deep was a deep well in that heaven filled with many waters (metaphically means many opinions).
The earth was at the bottom of that deep place and sat as described in verse two, in darkness without light, void of life, and unformed as is a lump of clay awaiting a potter.
The earth was created at the same time as the heaven of verse one, because God was prepared with all his legal evidences before any rebellion against his throne ensued.
The earth was left in it's basest form and condition because by it's being the most base of all things created, it was the perfect legal device to prove that the seeming foolishness (as men think) and foolish things of God are wiser than any of the highminded rebels.
Thus, by setting his seal to the clay he evidences his truth's in the clay man, Jesus of Nazareth and thusly, legally exposes and disposes of all rebellion in an orderly way.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines.

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:33 PM Joseppi has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 195 of 295 (581417)
09-15-2010 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by jar
09-15-2010 1:16 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
quote:
I never said that translated texts should not use capitals, I said that the Hebrews did not use case sensitive letters or punctuation.
And I pointed out how your statement carried no logical weight. Get over it and move on.
quote:
Please look and you will see that I included the full text of Genesis 1.
And I appreciate anyone who publishes the Bible. thanks.
quote:
There is NOTHING in Genesis 1 related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there." That is just stuff you are making up.
And you are making up the notion that I'm making things up. You see? It's not an argument to make unsubstantiated claims.
In case you are not aware of this, I am pleased to inform you that the Bible is a teaching. That is why God created all things in six twenty-four hour days. He wasn't showing off. He could've done in no time at all. Or, he could've taken his sweet time. But, he did it in the manner described in Genesis to teach man a thing or two. Now I know this is of no interest to you but, that has nothing to do with the Bible. If you want to pretend nothing is being taught or meant and have concluded that it's all a fable then you are free to remain in the dark. It's your choice. But, as for any logical argument of merit? well...you haven't made any and it should be noted I think.
Anyone can make endless claims as to what they opinionate about whatever. so what? Opinions is that thing I care least about, so you're going to have to do better I think.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:55 PM Joseppi has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 196 of 295 (581418)
09-15-2010 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by jar
09-15-2010 1:33 PM


quote:
But none of that is in Genesis 1.
There is meaning there right in front of your nose. You are simply picking and choosing your determinations according to personal whim.
You reveal no tendency towards equity.
Is the Hebrew language in the English text? No.
Is the signature of the supposed authors in the text? No.
Is your limited viewpoint evidenced anywhere in the text? No.
Again, such excuses as you have thus far been using aren't useful in debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:33 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 199 of 295 (581424)
09-15-2010 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by ringo
09-15-2010 1:14 PM


Re: Chronology
quote:
Amos 5:24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
Judgment and righteousness do indeed flow parallel. But, judgment and righteousness are two different things. And that is the thing about parallelism, it means diddly squat when one says the water flowed as the other water flowed.
It has meaning when two distinct things run parallel.
Thus, in the above quoted verse, judgment runs down as waters, means that the judgment of God from the throne runs down as many kinds of waters and in many streams applying to many, and even all matters, some small and some great.
Whereas, righteousness as a mighty stream teaches that God's righteousness as evidenced by his many judgments, focuses the power of the waters into a stream that can't be withstood by anything.
Regardless, the Isaiah quote had nothing to do with anything parallel as far as I can tell.
The semicolon denoted the the phrase "yea, I made him" is referring to the the previous to steps involved with doing so, which steps were...creating the soul...and forming it's body.
I also failed to mention that the ones referred to in that quote are not all men but a select kind of men. Which then introduces a thing not explained in that sentence, which is the spirit of the ones referred to. Which spirit the others among mankind do not possess in kind.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add more blank lines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 09-15-2010 1:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 09-15-2010 2:09 PM Joseppi has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 200 of 295 (581426)
09-15-2010 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by jar
09-15-2010 1:55 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
quote:
Yes, you have said that, but I must once again ask you to show where in Genesis 1 there is anything related to "God's intention was to eventually put his throne on earth and dwell there."
I already pointed out that the capitalization denotes OWNERSHIP.
And I asked you to present a reason for the capitalization that counters the obvious meaning, which I noted, and am aware is in agreement with the whole Bible.
Your argument is that it shouldn't be there.
But, I see no evidence that it shouldn't.
However, it stands out to me because...
The heaven of verse one is singular.
The heaven of verse one is where God's throne was.
Thus, capitalizing the heaven where men dwell is notable.
Indeed, capitalization is a notable thing in English. So, claiming it to be seemingly strange that I would note it is absurd.
Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 1:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 2:27 PM Joseppi has replied

Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 202 of 295 (581430)
09-15-2010 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by ringo
09-15-2010 2:09 PM


Re: Chronology
quote:
We're not talking about distinct things running parallel though. We're talking about the same things being created, formed and made. The three different words are used in parallel for emphasis, not to indicate three different processes. Again, the principle is used all over the English and Hebrew languages. You're superimposing a lot of woo-woo interpretations that aren't supported by the text.
The subject was the making of the whole man and referred to his distinct and seperable parts.
As for your claim of emphasis only. Where is the proof of that?
Why would a semicolon be used to seperate that very exact same things. As I said, one does not convey meaning by saying..
I made man, I made man ; yea, I made man.
But, saying in effect...Yea, I made man; I created him, and I formed him, conveys the understanding that creating a lump of clay, and then forming a lump of clay is not the same thing, (as the definitions of the words allow) and that, both of these seperable actions were indeed required to make a man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 09-15-2010 2:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Joseppi
Member (Idle past 4943 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 204 of 295 (581432)
09-15-2010 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by jar
09-15-2010 2:27 PM


Re: capitals and multiple heavens
quote:
Those differences should be a clue that the purpose of the two fables is NOT creation itself but rather trying to describe how different people at different times viewed their relationships with the world around them, each other and the god they worshiped.
I guess we are done sharing out understandings on these chapters then.
I appreciated your responsiveness but, I see no reason to discuss clues that I myself don't see in the text.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 09-15-2010 2:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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