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Author Topic:   Humans faults and evolutionary biology
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 182 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 31 of 40 (579689)
09-05-2010 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
08-20-2010 1:44 PM


Such a message denies mainstream christian dogma.. If I am going to believe in a christian god, there must be a higher law of good and evil. And what I am pondering is if our base natural behavior(if you believe god had a hand in evolution, or at least wanted it to occur) as explained by evolution and old earth science(which I believe in) does reflect this, or that it's amoral, or a mix of both. But why would god take those last two options? Sadly, my biological knowledge is to lacking to give a decent answer.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 08-20-2010 1:44 PM jar has responded

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 Message 32 by jar, posted 09-05-2010 4:51 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30985
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 32 of 40 (579690)
09-05-2010 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Kairyu
09-05-2010 4:33 PM


Such a message denies mainstream christian dogma.

Good. Lots of "mainstream dogma" needs to be denied and quite honestly, ridiculed.

If I am going to believe in a christian god, there must be a higher law of good and evil.

Why? Haven't you read the Bible?

quote:
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

And what I am pondering is if our base natural behavior(if you believe god had a hand in evolution, or at least wanted it to occur) as explained by evolution and old earth science(which I believe in) does reflect this, or that it's amoral, or a mix of both.

What base natural behavior?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Kairyu, posted 09-05-2010 4:33 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

  
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 182 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 33 of 40 (580521)
09-09-2010 4:18 PM


I do have read some of it, including that statement. I do believe this story to be symbolic.

Although you're right: the basic belief of humans developing intelligence, and a sense of good and evil, goes right against that bible quote and story, which states that humans were innocent, but they ate from the tree which gave them knowledge. It may have been a explanation, but I agree that this is problematic.

As you might tell, I am more taking a neutral stance of doubt, rather then having grounded beliefs. I'm not here in this forum to defend Christianity, I I'm trying to discuss matters that concern me and learn.

And about base behaviour: General humans behaviour is based on A upbringing and B biological factors. Well, I'm talking about the B. It's generally a fact that all humans share some stereotypical behaviour and traits. That's what I meant.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30985
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 34 of 40 (580522)
09-09-2010 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Kairyu
09-09-2010 4:18 PM


And about base behaviour: General humans behaviour is based on A upbringing and B biological factors. Well, I'm talking about the B. It's generally a fact that all humans share some stereotypical behaviour and traits. That's what I meant.

And what are those stereotypical behaviors and traits?

AbE:

Although you're right: the basic belief of humans developing intelligence, and a sense of good and evil, goes right against that bible quote and story, which states that humans were innocent, but they ate from the tree which gave them knowledge. It may have been a explanation, but I agree that this is problematic.

Actually, the story never describes them as being innocent, more like amoral.

One of the important parts of the Garden of Eden story is the difference between an amoral society like we see in the other animals and the morality based society of humans.

Edited by jar, : add material


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Kairyu, posted 09-09-2010 4:18 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

  
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 182 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 35 of 40 (580616)
09-10-2010 10:28 AM


I do not exactly know how all traits work. But I am suspecting a few of these traits to be amoral. Just look at the things a humans can do when (s)he's in love with somebody, or just sexually attracted. Domination behaviour also occurs. Anger(and irrational behavior because of it) is also a big one. Basically some animals traits that are still there in altered form. We might be able to suppress it to a extent, but it's there.

I are fair from educated(in fact I'm only 18 years old), this is the best answer I can give.

In regards on your second part, I am curious at your exact beliefs. I'm still not sure if your agree with me or not.

Do you believe humans to be amoral or moral? Are we really so different and above animals? We might possess high intelligence, but could it be that behind that, some of our behavior and actions are still caused by lingering amoral instincts, including ''sinful'' behavior? And if I suppose this problem is real, how can you rationally explain it?

By taking the bible literally, and pointing to the fall? Or by dismissing a large amount of christian thought(like you seem to do), or even take a purely naturalistic worldview without design? Or was it all part of gods plan? But if that's so, then I have some possible problems with it

First of all, we do have the (symbolic, but still.. inspired) adam and eve story that, as you explain it, has humanity seizing knowledge of morality against God's will

And also... if it was a plan, god also would have foreseen sin arising. But yet, he seems to be disappointed in humans. Numerous stories in the bible point to this. Not to mention a few instances of a ''lake of fire'' are mentioned. And of course Jesus's sacrifice to cleanse this sin. I'm okay with that, but why make humans that would be sinful in the first place?

So basically, either this isn't, or we should be fully expected to suppress it. (Although, once again, most of humanity doesn't)
Otherwise I keep running into trouble with a theistic evolution/old earth belief.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30985
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 36 of 40 (580618)
09-10-2010 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Kairyu
09-10-2010 10:28 AM


I do not exactly know how all traits work. But I am suspecting a few of these traits to be amoral. Just look at the things a humans can do when (s)he's in love with somebody, or just sexually attracted. Domination behaviour also occurs. Anger(and irrational behavior because of it) is also a big one. Basically some animals traits that are still there in altered form. We might be able to suppress it to a extent, but it's there.

First, there is no concept of sin in amorality. It is simply impossible to sin or even do wrong in amorality. If a lion kills cubs that he did not father it is not wrong in an amoral sense. It is just what lions do.

In regards on your second part, I am curious at your exact beliefs. I'm still not sure if your agree with me or not.

For my personal beliefs, take a look in the section Columnist and read Belief Statement - jar and jar - On Christianity.

Do you believe humans to be amoral or moral? Are we really so different and above animals? We might possess high intelligence, but could it be that behind that, some of our behavior and actions are still caused by lingering amoral instincts, including ''sinful'' behavior? And if I suppose this problem is real, how can you rationally explain it?

Humans are not above animals and morality, immorality and amorality are simply human constructs. Humans themselves are not any of those, their behavior and judgments are.

Our sinful behavior is because we choose to behave sinfully. Claiming it is because of some "nature" is just an excuse, a cop out.

And also... if it was a plan, god also would have foreseen sin arising. But yet, he seems to be disappointed in humans. Numerous stories in the bible point to this. Not to mention a few instances of a ''lake of fire'' are mentioned. And of course Jesus's sacrifice to cleanse this sin. I'm okay with that, but why make humans that would be sinful in the first place?

Well, I don't think Jesus death was the sacrifice. That has never made any sense to me. Anyone born dies. Jesus was doomed to die the minute he was born. And a God that knowing creates critters that he will later condemn to hell can only be described as evil.

I personally don't believe in such a God.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Kairyu, posted 09-10-2010 10:28 AM Kairyu has not yet responded

  
Kairyu
Member (Idle past 182 days)
Posts: 162
From: netherlands
Joined: 06-23-2010


Message 37 of 40 (581095)
09-13-2010 4:16 PM


It seems you take large esteem into human free will. I do as well(although I am interested in the question how much free will we actually have, how it works,etc, but that's another story.) . I am very much against doing the wrong stuff.

It's just the general view you give of humans... Well. It's no excuse to be evil, far from it, but does if morality is a human construct, does that point to us being designed? Does human behavior makes sense, as in being created by a perfect god? That's what I have been questioning.


Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 09-13-2010 4:58 PM Kairyu has not yet responded
 Message 39 by frako, posted 09-13-2010 5:37 PM Kairyu has not yet responded
 Message 40 by barbara, posted 09-15-2010 8:28 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30985
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 38 of 40 (581099)
09-13-2010 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Kairyu
09-13-2010 4:16 PM


if morality is a human construct, does that point to us being designed?

Not at all. The fact that morality is a human construct and that it changes over time simply points to humans being able to learn and pass knowledge down over time.

Does human behavior makes sense, as in being created by a perfect god?

What possible connection could there be between a perfect god (whatever that means) and human behavior?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Kairyu, posted 09-13-2010 4:16 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 39 of 40 (581105)
09-13-2010 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Kairyu
09-13-2010 4:16 PM


It's no excuse to be evil, far from it, but does if morality is a human construct, does that point to us being designed?

morality would point to design if it was the same everywhere and remained the same trough history. that is clearly not the case so something must be effecting the moral compass of humans the most probable influence would be social and religius influences.

if you take slavery for an example throught history slavery was something normal, in some places it would have been considerd immoral not to own slaves if you could afford them a social stigma was aplyed to people that worked when they did not have to. in todays times it is immoral to own a slave even more than immoral its ilegal it went from a unwritten social norm or moral to a written law.

one could argue that god dint like slavery and ispired humanety to abolish it, you would haveto ask yourselve why would he condone it in the first place its written in the bible if you beat a slave and he dies you will get phunished but if he lives for a cuple of days after the beating you wont get punished


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Kairyu, posted 09-13-2010 4:16 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

    
barbara
Member (Idle past 2968 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 40 of 40 (581495)
09-15-2010 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Kairyu
09-13-2010 4:16 PM


Morality
I firmly believe that without a morality code of behavior we would have been extinct along time ago. I don't believe a God created it, logical reasoning is that it is human created in the desire for a better quality and quantity of life.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Kairyu, posted 09-13-2010 4:16 PM Kairyu has not yet responded

    
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