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Author Topic:   Existence After Death
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 16 of 163 (581706)
09-17-2010 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
09-16-2010 3:58 PM


Re: it's not the energy, it's the structure
An identical copy would exist for only an instant as Alfred Korzybski pointed out following Heraclitus, "No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
Identity is not as obvious as it appears. We are constantly unique in that sense.

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AricVader
Junior Member (Idle past 4831 days)
Posts: 6
From: Grand River, Iowa, United States
Joined: 09-14-2010


Message 17 of 163 (581707)
09-17-2010 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Theodoric
09-16-2010 10:53 PM


It is not so much that I want to live forever, it is more that I would like there to be something other than nothing. When I think of nothing, I suspect it is just like a void in which who we are and our uniqueness disappears forever.
Maybe I suffer from the vanity that many creationist tend to have and don't like the idea of being an insignificant little blip in the grandness of space and the massive magnitudes of time. I will have to think about that.

This message is a reply to:
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greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 18 of 163 (581708)
09-17-2010 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
09-16-2010 3:58 PM


Re: it's not the energy, it's the structure
Silliness. I am me. A clone of me would be my clone, and would have the same desires to live as myself.
If you could clone yourself, and you asked both "Which one is the real Jon?" I think both would stick their hands up, no?
It would be murder to kill either one of us, and neither of us would be willing to die knowing the other is going to continue living in our stead
Yes it would be murder! We may see things differently in the future if being dead becomes a minor inconvenience, but from where I sit it would be murder.
If you could clone yourself without dying, that would mean there is now two of you (or more!) and each would have at least as much right to life as the other you. I'm not talking about cloning whilst you're still alive though, I'm talking about a backup which may not be right up until your last breath being cloned after "you" died.
(we would have to) find a way to move the information after death, thereby ensuring that all aspects we desired to copy were copied from the individual and set into the new medium. Then we may say that the entity picked up where it left off and is thus a revival of the old entity that had dieda reincarnation in a new form of the copied properties of the individual.
Now you're still thinking as if there is something irretrievable about "you" - it's why I bring up the idea of lost memory. is there a difference in the you-ness of a clone which is missing memories versus a you which has lost it's memory? And I mean to outside observers and to each individual "you" which could be asked this theoretical question?
In either case, we've concluded that there is no specific non-corporeal thing definitively marking one less than the other, we've concluded that it's the energy signature making you "you" and now an outside observer is confronted with either a you that has lost it's memory of the past week, or a you which has lost it's memory of the past week because you died and didn't backup.
Both of them don't have the body they were born with, both of them have lost the same amount of memory, both of them would claim to be the real Jon...
Yes it's a thought experiment, and I'm not trying to convince you to see things my way

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 163 (581736)
09-17-2010 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by lfen
09-17-2010 1:05 AM


Re: it's not the energy, it's the structure
An identical copy would exist for only an instant as Alfred Korzybski pointed out following Heraclitus, "No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
This, of course, is ridiculous. You have taken the word 'identity' and used it to mean something far removed from, and far more irrelevant than, its regular meaning. Likewise have you done to the words 'same', 'man', and 'river'. What meaningful relationship do these word games have with the topic of continued existence?
Jon

"Can we say the chair on the cat, for example? Or the basket in the person? No, we can't..." - Harriet J. Ottenheimer
"Dim bulbs save on energy..." - jar

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 20 of 163 (581751)
09-17-2010 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
09-17-2010 8:55 AM


Re: it's not the energy, it's the structure
Hi, Jon.
You seem to be ascribing something ineffable to identity.
If a digital copy of me--memories, desires, brain function--survived me by a minute, an hour, or a day, that copy, once restored to consciousness, whether in reality or virtual reality, would rightly claim to be me, to possess my "identity." The observation of identical Omnis by others would dissipate as two lives diverged from one, but that constant change applies equally to a single, uncopied Omni.
As greyseal has argued quite well, the interruption in consciousness between corporeal death and restored consciousness would not differ from the case of, say, you, as a recovered amnesiac. Does the amnesia remove your identity? Then who is the amnesiac? If amnesiac Jon is a new, second identity, what happens when memory returns? Is that a new, third identity, formed by the merger of the two who came before, or just Jon restored to full consciousness?
At any rate, our memories leak like a sieve. We do things we cannot recall doing; we remember events that never happened. Surely an exactness and fullness of memory cannot be the sine qua non of identity. And if an interruption of consciousness alters identity, then we are reborn with new identities every time we pass out from whiskey or go under general anesthesia.
Identity, I think, is a misleading notion, smacking of its cousin, identical. Our sense of identity appears more a side-effect of our perceptual apparatus and the need for an executive function: just as our perceptions of the rock are not the rock, our senses of identity are not objective things.
We can't copy ourselves yet, but I am confident we will. With tools we learned to do more; already we've begun to make tools that can do more than we can. The brain is staggeringly complex, but it is finite. Given enough time, the technology of human back-ups and restoration seems inevitable.

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello
Real things always push back.
-William James

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 21 of 163 (581757)
09-17-2010 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by AricVader
09-17-2010 1:23 AM


... and don't like the idea of being an insignificant little blip in the grandness of space and the massive magnitudes of time.....
Step outside on a clear night and look up. Talk about humility. You ARE an insignificant blip. Carl Sagan's "Pale Blue Dot" sums it up rather well. The best you can do is live this one life you know* you have the best you can.
*(unless you're a Solipsist)

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 22 of 163 (581763)
09-17-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
09-16-2010 3:58 PM


Is you is, or is you ain't?
To move our thoughts on to an alternate medium (i.e., hard disk, network, etc.) would be to create a copy, and then kill the original.
Why would you need to kill the original? How does that complete the transfer process exactly? What would happen if killing the original was botched and the original woke up 4 weeks later? Does that mean the transfer of thoughts didn't occur? What if the original woke up and died 2 minutes later? Was the transfer successful then?
When something is copied, a new one of that something is created and becomes an entity distinct from the old.
If I told you I was going to create an identical copy of you and torture the original or the copy. Altruism aside - would you rather I torture the original or the copy? Why? Personally my answer is 'no' - I have no preference.
If I stipulated that I will kill the one that I didn't torture would that change anything? If you pick the original to die the clone would have this experience: "I woke up, am I the clone or the original? I'm being tortured - I must be the clone, my original body is either dead or will die soon."
Do you really care which particular collection of molecules experiences that? Does it matter to you if when you wake up and make the deduction it happens to be "I'm the original"?
What if I create two copies of you, imprison the original for 1 year before executing it but gave it a choice between which copy it would want to torture? What if, after you made that choice I reveal that you yourself are a copy that was secretly made and the real original was killed five years ago, 1 year after 'you' were copied? How would you cope with learning that you weren't you?
It has nothing to do with duality; it has to do with unique individualityall individuals believe themselves unique, even when confronted with an identical copy.
And neither has claim on being more 'ideal' than the other. They have a separate destiny, but identical past. They both identify the same childhood memories - they belong to both in equal measure. You believe yourself to be a unique instantiation of your personality - but you would be in the unusual position in that there are multiple instantiations rather than one constantly running and changing one.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 23 of 163 (581766)
09-17-2010 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phage0070
09-17-2010 12:08 AM


It seems reasonable to assume that almost everyone alive wants to live.
Well as you can see from my original statement.
Theodoric writes:
Why? Why do you want to live forever?
My comment was not about living. It is about living forever.
If you are actually addressing that, I think your statement is ridiculous. I know a lot off people that don't want to live forever. Imagine the interminable boredom that will set in even after a few decades. I enjoy my life, I am living every moment I can. The reason is that I know it has an end. I know I will get old and my body will change for none the better.
Speaking in absolutes is rarely a good idea.
Edited by Theodoric, : spelling

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 24 of 163 (581768)
09-17-2010 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Modulous
09-17-2010 12:09 PM


Re: Is you is, or is you ain't?
Modulous writes:
What if I create two copies of you, imprison the original for 1 year before executing it but gave it a choice between which copy it would want to torture? What if, after you made that choice I reveal that you yourself are a copy that was secretly made and the real original was killed five years ago, 1 year after 'you' were copied? How would you cope with learning that you weren't you?
If I recall my Marvel correctly, in that case you would be Spiderman.

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello
Real things always push back.
-William James

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 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 09-17-2010 12:09 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 25 of 163 (581769)
09-17-2010 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Theodoric
09-17-2010 12:26 PM


Just imagine the procrastination!
"Man, I've always wanted to go to DisneyLand. Fuck it: I'll go next century"

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 26 of 163 (581770)
09-17-2010 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by AricVader
09-17-2010 1:23 AM


Maybe I suffer from the vanity that many creationist tend to have and don't like the idea of being an insignificant little blip in the grandness of space and the massive magnitudes of time.
As we all are.
There is a way to continue living after death. It is to live on in the memories of those still a live. You live on in family in friends. My grandparents are still very much alive in my thoughts and memories. In my memories a they are not sickly, dying or mentally incapacitated. They are at the best point I have a memory of them, vibrant, interesting and loving.
All I can suggest is not to concern yourself with death. Concern yourself with life and the ones you love and care about. Concern yourself with making yourself a better person to yourself. Be that knowledge, seeing the world, helping others or whatever. In this way when you die and become worm dirt*, you will live on in memories of those you shared your life with.
Damn that was sappy. But that is my outlook on life and death.
*worm dirt
When I die, my wife has instructions to bury me out in our woods. Right now we have 30 acres and I cannot conceive that we will ever not own some acreage. I want to just be put in a shroud and buried in the ground. The worms and animals should get to my body and "recycle" me. Wisconsin has no laws on home burial so I am lucky in that regard.

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 Message 17 by AricVader, posted 09-17-2010 1:23 AM AricVader has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 27 of 163 (581771)
09-17-2010 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by hooah212002
09-17-2010 12:40 PM


Would you risk your immortal life by going to Disneyland? What if your roller coaster crashed? What if you drowned in the Tunnel of Love?
It's one thing to risk a short life driving down I-95...but risk forever?
We'd become a species of immortal chickens.

Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by hooah212002, posted 09-17-2010 12:40 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 28 of 163 (581773)
09-17-2010 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Omnivorous
09-17-2010 12:54 PM


I was just talking about procrastination for procrastination's sake. Think: lazy. Like how I am procrastinating right now about taking out my garbage.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 163 (581776)
09-17-2010 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Theodoric
09-17-2010 12:26 PM


Theodoric writes:
I know I will get old and my body will change for none the better.
See, most people who want to live forever assume that aging and such would be halted. They also don't consider boredom at all.
I don't think my statement is ridiculous at all. Most people who are alive have a healthy appreciation for staying that way, so I find it unsurprising that they would express a desire to make it permanent. They may change their minds later, but likely only when they are no longer young and/or healthy.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 30 of 163 (581778)
09-17-2010 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phage0070
09-17-2010 1:09 PM


See, most people who want to live forever assume that aging and such would be halted.
But what age would you eternally be? Do you get to pick? What if you are having a great time at 18 and think "maybe I'll wait until 21 or 25" then, you get to that age and realize 18 was better?

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

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