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Author Topic:   Adam was created on the 3rd day
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2783 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 64 of 233 (383142)
02-07-2007 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by arachnophilia
08-02-2006 5:58 PM


Re: seeing God
quote:
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time;
arach writes:
except jacob.
oh, and moses.
and Adam, and Eve, and Abram, and Aaron, and Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel ...
oh, and various prophets ...
Edited by doctrbill, : Additions and Corrections

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by arachnophilia, posted 08-02-2006 5:58 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Juraikken, posted 04-15-2007 8:43 PM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2783 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 67 of 233 (395304)
04-15-2007 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Juraikken
04-15-2007 8:43 PM


Re: seeing God
Juraikken writes:
how did Moses see God?
You tell me. I am merely sharing what I see in the Bible.
how did Aaron see God?
You tell me. I am merely sharing what I see in the Bible.
please explain to me every account that saw God, his ACTUAL form, not something that spoke to them through God.
No thanks.
If you don't know what the scripture says on this subject, or you think there's some reason to doubt what it says, then tell us what you think it should say.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Juraikken, posted 04-15-2007 8:43 PM Juraikken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Juraikken, posted 04-15-2007 11:35 PM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2783 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 69 of 233 (395324)
04-16-2007 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Juraikken
04-15-2007 11:35 PM


Re: seeing God
Juraikken writes:
what did John mean when he said "no one hath seen God"?
What do you mean, what did he mean?
i believe the Bible to be completely accurate ... its not false that John said No one has seen God at any time
Yet you recognize that John's statement apparently contradicts Old Testament witnesses who claim to have seen God face to face, wrestled with him, had lunch with him and argued with him. Yes?
John also says: "God is a spirit." Spirits are invisible. Thus, by John's logic: God is invisible. Moses might take issue with John's statement but that's not my problem.
I could try to tell you everything I know on the subject but where's the fun in that? It would be more enjoyable and far more convincing to discover the answers for yourself.
For the purpose of assisting topical study, nothing beats: blueletterbible.org

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Juraikken, posted 04-15-2007 11:35 PM Juraikken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 12:30 AM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2783 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 71 of 233 (395334)
04-16-2007 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Juraikken
04-16-2007 12:30 AM


Re: seeing God
Juraikken writes:
please give me verses
Is your mouse finger broken? I am not a kindly ol' Sunday School teacher. I've given you excellent clues and offered you sophisticated tools. You'll have to do your own homework.
I look forward to our next conversation.
Goodnight.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 12:30 AM Juraikken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Juraikken, posted 04-16-2007 1:11 AM doctrbill has seen this message but not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2783 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 217 of 233 (476374)
07-23-2008 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by graft2vine
07-28-2006 7:28 PM


FACT versus FANTASY
You overlook, I think, a number of items which might be construed as challenging to your hypothesis.
  1. Mist is NOT rain. Do the etymological thing on that word and you will find that it conjures a vision of fog; like the ”fog’ which appears when one stirs a smoky fire. See Strong’s #108. Note: The online version at Blue Letter Bible does not include all the information provided in the hardbound edition, which says:
    quote:
    “from the same as 181 (in the sense of enveloping); a fog.
    See also #181. Of which Strong also comments (hardbound edition):
    quote:
    “a poker (for turning or gathering embers).”
    Fog is visually comparable to smoke and such fogs may be observed to arise in arid lands.
    Another view of the pyramids; from the air.
    But,
  2. "Mist," or Fog, does NOT provide enough moisture for crops. Yes, fog gets the ground wet but such humidity as that which "went up ... from the earth" would also evaporate into the air, resulting in a net loss of soil moisture.
    At least one Bible translator, recognizing the facts of this matter, translates the pertinent verse as follows (emphasis mine):
    quote:
    "But a mist went up from the earth, and moistened the whole surface of the ground." Genesis 2:6 Darby
    This explains why,
    “a river went out of Eden to water the garden;” Genesis 2:10
  3. The garden was located near a place which was already named; a location apparently known to, and contemporary with biblical authors. This suggests two things:
    1.) That Noah’s flood was localized: for surely no recognizable real estate would remain after the upheaval imagined for that event.
    2.) That the story is not about the origin of humankind but rather the origin of Hebrew ancestors. And that explains a lot; like:
    a.) A different concept of deity;
    b.) A different method of creation;
    c.) A different role for humanity;
    d.) And a different status for the female.
  4. A hostile desert existed outside the Garden of Eden. This is the ground from which the man was taken.
    quote:
    “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken:" ... Gen 3:19
    "Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken." Gen 3:23
He was apparently NOT taken from the irrigated soil of the Garden but rather from the dusty land of “Thorns and thistles.” Gen 3:18
quote:
"dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return."
Something to think about.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by graft2vine, posted 07-28-2006 7:28 PM graft2vine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by graft2vine, posted 02-24-2010 5:18 PM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2783 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 223 of 233 (548009)
02-24-2010 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by graft2vine
02-24-2010 5:18 PM


Re: FACT versus FANTASY
graft2vine writes:
Are you suggesting that God watered the ground with smoke? You lost me.
According to Strong's lexicon, the word translated "mist" is derived from a term which describes smoke.
What goes up must come down. It goes up as mist but comes back down as rain, hence the watering.
According to the scripture:
quote:
"... the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, ..." Genesis 2:5
The whole earth was watered, not just eden.
According to the scripture, it watered:
quote:
... the whole face of the ground ..." Genesis 2:6
And if that mist supplied moisture enough then why was a river needed for irrigation?
quote:
"... a river went out of Eden to water the garden ..." Genesis 2:10
Ancient authorities do not agree on whether it should read "a mist" (Tanach) or "a spring" (LXX/Vulgate). Modern authorities cannot agree on whether it is about "earth" (most versions) or "land" (English Standard Version). The situation is understandably confusing and creationists do not agree on what it says, much less on what it means. It appears that you could benefit from re-reading whatever is your favorite translation of the story. I say this because I know of none which would lead you to suggest that "the mist" condensed and fell back to earth as "rain." It does not apparently occur to you that your hypothetical rain would be the very same water which had already come out of that ground which needed watering and would thus provide no additional moisture. That and the fact that your Bible asserts it had not rained, leads me to believe that you need further study.
Good luck with that.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by graft2vine, posted 02-24-2010 5:18 PM graft2vine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by graft2vine, posted 02-25-2010 12:07 PM doctrbill has seen this message but not replied
 Message 230 by Buzsaw, posted 09-16-2010 11:15 PM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2783 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 231 of 233 (581744)
09-17-2010 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Buzsaw
09-16-2010 11:15 PM


Re: FACT versus FANTASY
Hi Buzz,
I see you are hanging in there as well.
Buzz writes:
Perhaps the river irrigation was to come down the line after the sin/curse when Adam would have to till the land etc. Perhaps for certain crops more water than the mist afforded would be beneficial for a good yield.
Two problems I see with this answer, Buzz. They are the same two problems stated in verse five (vs. 5):
1) - Nothing is growing "because" it hasn't rained. - If the mist had provided adequate soil moisture then surely something would have been growing. And,
2) - There is no one to "till" (work, cultivate) the soil. - The man was created in the first place because "there was not a man to till the ground." In fact, these people were brought in "to dress the garden and keep it." (vs. 15).
One cannot keep a garden without working the soil. It is interesting to note (and I had not seen this before now) that the Hebrew term 'abad - translated "till" in verse 5 is translated "dress" in verse 15. Indeed, some modern versions read:
"to till it" (NRSV);
"to work it" (NIV);
"to cultivate it" (NASB).
You will note that both the "mist" and the "irrigation" are in place before the fall (vs. 10).
Hope this answers your question.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Buzsaw, posted 09-16-2010 11:15 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Buzsaw, posted 09-17-2010 10:27 PM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2783 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 233 of 233 (581889)
09-17-2010 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Buzsaw
09-17-2010 10:27 PM


Re: FACT versus FANTASY
Buzsaw writes:
In context, the statement in question aluded to the timeframe of just before day three when there was no sun and moon, etc and before the plants were made. Chapter one is the only consistently sequential record of creation.
And yet, you wish the second narrative to agree with the first. If the second narrative is sequentially inconsistent (inconsistent with narrative one) then what makes you think that narrative one is the "consistently sequential...record." What makes you think the man was made before the woman? Because the story has a flow to it, that's why. God made the man and then the animals and brought the animals to the man to see what he would call them. After surveying and naming all the animals, the man found no mate among them. Then the woman was made; after the man; after the animals. So, actually, the sequence of narrative two IS consistent with the story of narrative two. It is NOT consistent with the story of narrative one.
Narrative one; the narrative you say is "the only consistently sequential record of creation" has plants appearing on day three, birds appearing on day five, and animals including humans (male and female) on day six.
Telling the story as if the man appears before the plants, before the birds, before the other animals and well ahead of woman is no accident but is important to the story in narrative two. You cannot reorder the events of narrative two without ruining the story told there; and the order of those events is entirely different from what you have called "the only consistently sequential record of creation," i.e. narrative one.
BTW, The woman of narrative 2 is made NOT by speaking her into existence simultaneously with the man, as depicted in narrative 1, but rather by cloning her, sometime after, from a surgically removed piece of the man. This is not a random and irrelevant reordering of events but a purposeful and independent description of a very different idea of origins. The fact that it does not mention fish or seas is on a par with the fact that it does not mention sun, moon, or stars. It's all about the land, the garden, the naked people, and the talking snake.
Narrative one sounds a bit like an evolution.
Narrative two sounds exactly like a fairy tale.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Buzsaw, posted 09-17-2010 10:27 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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