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Author Topic:   Problems with being an Atheist (or Evolutionist)
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 181 of 276 (581529)
09-16-2010 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
I am not going to reply to everyone individually. I see no need for you people to repeat answers. I am well aware of the atheists stance on "the lack of belief". However, atheism by definition is not someone who doesn't believe in something. Atheism, in a narrow sense is specifically the position that there are no deities. That is a belief. You cannot dis-prove God's existence, so you believe there are no gods. Don't be hypocrites.
Well, sure, if you want to use your version of what atheism means, you could claim that. But, if you want to know what we, actual atheists think you might be better listening to us.
Think of it like this, would you describe yourself as an 'a-zeusist'? Or someone with a belief in no Shiva? No, because these things aren't central to your beliefs, they're merely consequences of what you believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 09-15-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 8:51 PM Dr Jack has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 182 of 276 (581669)
09-16-2010 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Nij
09-15-2010 10:50 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
Agnostics are people who don't think it's possible to know for sure.
To be fair, agnostics are people who believe it's not possible to know at all. Hardly anybody at all - especially not an atheist - is 100% no-doubt sure about anything. How could we be, especially the science-minded atheists, who especially understand that knowledge is provisional?
There really aren't atheists who are 100% no-doubt sure about the non-existence of "God", because that term can refer to anything at all. Like me, like Dawkins, like Hitchens, like Harris, and like the rest of the so-called "New Atheists", they believe that there's substantial evidence against the existence of many notions called "God", most especially the notions common to the majority of the religious. Evidence that supports the provisional conclusion of the non-existence of any god.
Agnostics are either people who believe exactly the above but don't have the courage to "come out" as atheists for whatever reason, or people who believe it's not possible for that evidence to exist. Either way, agnosticism really isn't a tenable intellectual position. Recognizing the provisional nature of knowledge doesn't make you an "agnostic", that would be saying that you can't know anything at all unless you know it for sure. That's not a standard of evidence that is applied to any other area of inquiry, to say the least. Recognizing the provisional nature of knowledge doesn't make you an agnostic, it makes you a reasonable person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Nij, posted 09-15-2010 10:50 PM Nij has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 183 of 276 (581916)
09-18-2010 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
I am not going to reply to everyone individually. I see no need for you people to repeat answers. I am well aware of the atheists stance on "the lack of belief". However, atheism by definition is not someone who doesn't believe in something. Atheism, in a narrow sense is specifically the position that there are no deities. That is a belief. You cannot dis-prove God's existence, so you believe there are no gods. Don't be hypocrites.
You seem to be (rightly) drawing a distinction between saying "I don't believe in God" (known as "weak" or "negative" atheism) and saying "I believe that there is no God" (known as "strong" or "positive" atheism.
You then (wrongly) say that an atheist, "by definition", is someone who says the second.
You then, and this is where it gets really weird, go on to imply that an atheist who affirms the negative atheism but rejects postive atheism is a liar and a hypocrite because they must really affirm positive atheism.
This relies on a vast and stupid fallacy of equivocation. On the one hand, you class as atheists those people who call themselves atheists. On the other hand you redefine "atheists" as positive atheists. Then you complain that negative atheists are being dishonest for being atheists (which they are in the normal Enlish-language sense that they are atheists) but for not admitting that they have the opinions which define atheists (according to your redefinition of "atheist" which actually precisely excludes the people you're accusing of hypocrisy).
They would be hypocrites if they were atheists by your definition of the word athiest and yet pretended that they weren't atheists by your definition of the word athiest. But this is not the case.
Back in reality the most your redefinition could do (if it was generally accepted, which it isn't) is prove that negative atheists shouldn't call themselves atheists and should call themselves something else. But it cannot prove that they are "hypocritical" for not advocating views which they do not in fact believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 09-15-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 8:52 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4704 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 184 of 276 (582063)
09-19-2010 2:33 PM


A true scientifically minded person, or logically minded person would never be an atheist. He would always leave room open for further interpretation. At best he would be agnostic.
Generally speaking, the way science works is that a conclusion is made based on the results of an experiment to provide facts. You are correct in one aspect, that science is self correcting in one way, but it only self corrects itself when better information comes along to change a previous fact.
And your claim is also misleading too, because many atheists want real evidence that God exists which counters your claim that they do not. Currently, all we have are claims and beliefs of the existence of god. And of course, since it is you people who are making the claim that God exists and we must all worship him in one single way, it is you who must provide the evidence of God's existence. We do not have to prove or support our claim because it is not an active claim. An active claim would be something like "it is completely impossible for a being like God to exist". If we made that claim, which we aren't, we would have to prove it with evidence.
For example, God does miracles.
Okay.
We want to see a miracle that cannot be explained by science. A good example of this kind of miracle is that we'd like to see God himself come down from heaven, cut somebody's arm off with a large sword, then regrow the arm without the use of any sort of technology, however small or large, of absolutely any sort. Because any technology is indistinguishable from magic (to paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke's famous quote) and can be used to simulate a miracle. So therefore, if any sort of technology is used then it cannot be a supernatural miracle since supernatural miracles do not use technology of any sort.
This is actually my favorite video on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rqUsC2KsiI
But, I'm of the opinion it's completely impossible for a theist to understand what atheism truly is, because of the absolutely ludicrous and deplorable verse "The fool sayeth in his heart there is no God".
And I don't know why I'm even bothering. Theists never change their mind when it comes to atheism. They are completely unable to do so. Because then it might lead them to question the existence of God and we can't have that now, can we?
Edited by Tram law, : better formatting and correction of spelling

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 185 of 276 (582071)
09-19-2010 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
09-15-2010 7:43 AM


riVeRraT writes:
quote:
I am well aware of the atheists stance on "the lack of belief".
You just think they're liars.
quote:
However, atheism by definition is not someone who doesn't believe in something. Atheism, in a narrow sense is specifically the position that there are no deities. That is a belief. You cannot dis-prove God's existence, so you believe there are no gods. Don't be hypocrites.
Not holding the position that god exists is a "belief" the way that not collecting stamps is a "hobby."
Tell us: Do you have the hobby of aphilately? What about anumismatism? Do you spend your weekends pursuing your passion of not quilting? Are you gearing up for the great big no-model-trains show? Do you never pass a chance to not see a dog show?
To pretend that the absence of something is actually a presence of the very thing that is absent is disingenuous at best.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 09-15-2010 7:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 9:03 PM Rrhain has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 186 of 276 (582101)
09-19-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by crashfrog
09-15-2010 10:18 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"crashfrog" writes:
Christianity is absolutely no obstacle to using drugs, cheating on your wife, self-dealing, robbery, corruption, or any other vice.
But Jesus Christ is.
Since Christianity can't stop people from being people, it's absurd to suggest that atheists deny God so they can do whatever they want.
Yes, that is a good point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by crashfrog, posted 09-15-2010 10:18 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 205 by crashfrog, posted 09-19-2010 9:56 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 187 of 276 (582102)
09-19-2010 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by nwr
09-15-2010 10:24 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
On the definition of atheism.
"nwr" writes:
That's too restrictive.
Not my definition, was from wikipedia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by nwr, posted 09-15-2010 10:24 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2010 8:41 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 200 by nwr, posted 09-19-2010 9:24 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 188 of 276 (582103)
09-19-2010 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by dwise1
09-15-2010 3:44 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"dwise" writes:
The only thing that atheists have in common with each other is that they do not accept the god-stories of theists; they do not believe that you possess the truth.
Which is fine. But they act like they have the truth. They refuse to admit that the concept of no-God is a belief.
And the second thing that atheists have in common with each other is that theists hate us
That is not even close to being true, you should stop thinking that way.
Au contraire! Of course the gods exist. They are human inventions devised to attempt to explain the inexplicable. The same as the supernatural.
Prove that, and I will accept it. Until then, it's just a belief.
Now, even if the supernatural were to exist, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it? And even if supernatural entities were to exist, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it? And even if some supernatural entity were to exist that could in any manner be considered a god, how could any human be able to determine in any degree of detail anything about it?
My point exactly.
He is not a native English speaker. How well do you write in his own native language?
Sorry then, I tried to say it nicely, because I want to understand him, but I didn't. I mean there is spell check.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 189 of 276 (582106)
09-19-2010 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by riVeRraT
09-19-2010 8:27 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
Sounds like you are treading very closely to a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 8:27 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 190 of 276 (582107)
09-19-2010 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by riVeRraT
09-19-2010 8:29 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
You might want to read the next line in wikipedia.
quote:
Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
Selective quoting is rarely a good idea.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 8:29 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 9:19 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 191 of 276 (582109)
09-19-2010 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by onifre
09-15-2010 6:03 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"onifire" writes:
Why should I consider the possibility of a being that human's imagined as being valid?
Human imagined? Prove that one, or else stop saying it.
You don't have to believe it's valid.
The default position is, there are no supernatural entities,
Says who? That's complete bullshit. Even children think there is something more. People are born thinking there is more to life than just this. Believing in a god and the supernatural is the default position.
I start at zero and work my way up the scale of belief as more and more evidence is brought forward. But as of yet, there is no evidence, not in the slightest, so I remain at position zero, also refered to as atheism.
Again, you will never find God that way. It is by faith only. If you are not willing to live by faith, then you will never know God.
but unconvinced of the possibility that a human being, here on Earth, somehow had an experience that supported the notion that things that are not bound by or derived from the laws of nature can exist. Frankly, how the fuck could anyone possibly assume such an illogical thing based on meer experiences?
Why is that so hard for you to imagine? You have never sat in a black-lit room, stoned out of your mind wondering where the hell all this came from? Ever wonder what was before the big bang? It is totally easy to imagine things working in a different way. Time travel, worm holes, the random movements of quantum particles, its all there.
Do I seem like that to you? 'Cause I'll caution you that that would be insulting.
I should have specified, the pissed ones. You don't seem pissed, and you have been nice to me, and our conversations have been awesome.
You are also doing what most theist do, you only accpet one god and to YOU all atheist are rejecting your god and his rules.
No I am not. I am apologetic. That means a lot of things. I've said it a bunch of times. I believe in accountability. I don't think atheists are going to hell. No-one can tell whats in another mans heart.
I have chosen to accept one God, because after 38 years of not knowing wtf to believe, something happened to me, that was very real. Had that not happened, had God not come to me in a powerful way, I would still be unsure.
Either that or I am delusional.
You are an atheist like me for any other concept of god that isn't the Christian version.
No, don't try that one on me, I've already had that discussion on another forum. A theist is someone who believes in a "god", not any specific god, just a god.
If that were true, then could you name me one suicide bomber from the religion of Buddhism? Or Jainism? Or Hinduism? Or Christianity? Judaism? No...just Muslims. So it is an isolated problem and one associated solely with the Muslim faith. The bomber is not acting on his/her own beliefs, but the beliefs of their religion.
I am pretty sure that is not true. Someone chime in here. Lots of killing has gone on in the name of "god" throughout the centuries.
Excuse me but the Bible warns it's followers to not pick and choose, nor to question the word of god.
Yea sure. The word of God, comes from His mouth, not repeated by humans. I don't take the bible as the word of God. I take it as a book of writings inspired by the Holy Spirit. But the writings were by men.
That is why so many Christians can read it, and one year a verse can have one meaning in their lives, then a year later, it means something else. That is because God talks to us through those words. We hear His actual word, which is subjective to each of us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by onifre, posted 09-15-2010 6:03 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by bluescat48, posted 09-19-2010 8:54 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 198 by Modulous, posted 09-19-2010 9:20 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 235 by onifre, posted 09-20-2010 5:09 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 192 of 276 (582110)
09-19-2010 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by riVeRraT
09-19-2010 8:34 PM


riVeRraT writes:
quote:
They refuse to admit that the concept of no-God is a belief.
And since atheists are the ultimate authority on atheism, wouldn't it be best to listen to them?
But if you won't, you're still going to have to explain how the absence of something can be an example of the presence of the very thing that is absent.
Not holding the position that god exists is a "belief" the way that not collecting stamps is a "hobby."
Tell us: Do you have the hobby of aphilately? What about anumismatism? Do you spend your weekends pursuing your passion of not quilting? Are you gearing up for the great big no-model-trains show? Do you never pass a chance to not see a dog show?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 8:34 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 193 of 276 (582111)
09-19-2010 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Dr Jack
09-16-2010 5:31 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"MrJack" writes:
Well, sure, if you want to use your version of what atheism means
That meaning was ripped from wikipedia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Dr Jack, posted 09-16-2010 5:31 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Dr Jack, posted 09-20-2010 4:16 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 194 of 276 (582113)
09-19-2010 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dr Adequate
09-18-2010 5:50 AM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
"DrAdequate" writes:
They would be hypocrites if they were atheists by your definition of the word athiest and yet pretended that they weren't atheists by your definition of the word athiest. But this is not the case.
Not my definition, thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-18-2010 5:50 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 195 of 276 (582114)
09-19-2010 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by riVeRraT
09-19-2010 8:48 PM


Re: Atheism IS a belief
Believing in a god and the supernatural is the default position.
Only when one has been indoctrinated into such a belief. No one is born knowing anything about life, the environment, the universe or any beings, supernatural or not. The default position is nothing.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2010 8:48 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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