Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2

Hi NOMA, Then you should not have any problem taking that black and white and refuting what I have affirmed in this thread then.You should have no problem clearing up the contradictions between the story in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 if they are the same story.On the other hand you can do a lot of hand waving and tell me I have not supplied evidence of anything.So lets see if we can agree on anything. The subject is God.
The verb of completed action is created. This verb is used only as completed action by God.
The result of the action that was completed was the heavens and the earth.Thus I affirm we have a declarative statement of completed action by God.Heaven and Earth existed.There are three times in Genesis this verb is used about something being brought into existence. This verse refers to all three verses. God stops creating, He will create a new heaven and earth according to Revelation 21:1. This verse refers to the day God created the heaven and the earth. These two verses refer to mankind created male and female in Genesis 1:27. This verse refers to mankind created in Genesis 1:27 and their descendents.Thus I affirm there are only 3 verses in Genesis in which anything began to exist being כרא created.All other things were formed from existing material. Then by all means enlighten me and explain the contradictions between the stories as well as anything above that I have stated that is incorrect.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi I CANTI guess in essence I must take responsibilty for how I am perceived by others in the forum however I fail to see how pointing out something to be "the literal biblical reality" when you are the one who has concocoted a theory albeit when you where 10 and you admit your theory has no support from anyone but yourself. Would that not mean that it's you waving both hands trying to get us to engage in a debate with a theory that has zero evidence to support it? Well yes it would. Some may even call that antagonistic towards all genuine bible fundamentalist/literalists, no? Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.

Hi NOMA, But that is the problem I do take it as it is written with no additions or substractions.Anyone who tries to make one story out of the two accounts is not taking the literal reading of the text.That is the reason I laid out several messages in the first post back to you where I state what the Bible literally says and asked you to refute what I put forth.In 60 years nobody has even tried to refute what that 10 year old boy read and understood the literal text to say.If you would care to you could take the two things I affirm in my post prior to this one and refute or correct them.If it is as simple as you say that should be no problem.When we get past that post I will move on and go back through everything I have affirmed in this thread.BTW this is research in preparation for writing that book you advised me to write. Except it will be a Literal Account of Genesis Creation or A Radical View of Genesis Creation I have been working on it for 3 years now.God Bless,

Hi ICANT, glad to hear you are writing that book and passionate about your theories, dont let me put you off (I know you won't) but you still have to clarify your point or show me what the point is brother. Please read what I have said here...I have had a read of your last post and you appear to be stating the obvious(which is progress for me) but I'm not grasping your point.Man was created/made out of the ground, IE existing material as where all the animals and all the plants yes (which is what Genesis chapter two clarifies, but this does not contradict G1 and simply explains more as to how God did what is stated in G1. This is mans Glory his crown if you will that he was created out of the Earth, what is your point?It's like Boewing did a press release showing the new Airbus and then revealed the engineers manual that showed how they built it. Is that two different/separate events that happened billions of years apart? Not unless the engineering process can be proven to have taken billions of years. On a literal face value read no it doesn't prove that at all.What you appear to be are saying is the engineering plans in G2 are for a different press realeas of the AIrbus in G1, IE a concord or something like that, is that correct?Are you saying there are two separate creations of man? That's right isnt it? IE G1 is not Adam and Eve and G2 is Adam and Eve?I need you to prove that to me, if you would be so kind, or show me how you are getting that from a literal read through please.I'm happy for you to use the Hebrew as well of course and don't mind a looking closely at that.Im sorry I haven't read through the whole thread, if you dont mind repeating the important points again for me I would be grateful.To be fare I dont need to (nor can I) refute or agree with something that in my humble, dark ages, peasant like, opinion doesn't exist to me yet.Kind regards and God blessI am assuming you are born again regenerated being through the blood of our precious Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? The following statement may give you an idea of the horrifying conclusion your theories are allowing the heathen to jump too. This is very serious stuff you are dealing with here brother and I ain't taking it lightly.QUOTE:This does mean, however, that there are plenty of humans not burdened by original sin, not destined for hell by default and do not need to revere nor worship this god or any other. UNQUOTEPS. Im sorry to say I am now recalling that pre adamic man is not a new theory. I stand corrected it is not an original idea. Pre adamic man is the argumnet that was bron out of the search to find a wife for Cain and AbleEdited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.

Hi NOMA,You edited your post while I was answering it. They were not created you are adding to the text.Order of events in G2God formed man, out of the dust of the ground. Gen. 2:7
God planted a garden and put the man in it. Gen 2:8
God forbid the man to eat of a specific tree. Gen. 2:17
God made every tree to grow out of the ground. Gen. 2:9
God formed creatures and fowl from the ground. Gen. 2:19
God made a woman from a rib from the man. Gen. 2:22 But it contradicts everything in G1.Order of events in G1 Vegetation brought forth from the seed that was in the ground.Where did that seed come from if the plants had not already existed? The same Hebrew word כרא is used in Genesis 1:1 concerning the creation of the Heaven and the Earth. It is also used in Genesis 1:27 concerning man. These are the only creation events recorded in Genesis. All other uses in Genesis refere to one of these events.Fowl produced from the water instead of formed from the ground.Great whales or sea monsters were created. They had never existed.All other water creatures was produced after their kind.If they were produced after their kind they had to have previously existed. All the land creatures were made after their kind. After the sea monsters (great whales) were created and all the others things produced after its kind or from the seed in the ground God created man male and female created He them. God then told them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth. How could they do that if it had not been previously inhabited?God told them they could eat the fruit of every tree. He did not forbid them from eating from any tree. You got to get them saying the same things at the same time before you can get G2 to explain what happened in G1.Events take place in a totally different sequence in G1 than they do in G2. Not to mention other differences.Now I been waiting 60 years for someone to explain how the two events described above can be the story of 1 event.If you or anyone else has the answer now would be a great time to explain it to me.God Bless,In Message 454 you said: No to be more accurate it is like he built the aircraft and a few billions years later printed the manual.The Heaven and the Earth with mankind was here a long time before the manual was written. I thought I had made that perfectly clear in this thread.The man in G2 was formed from the dust of the ground in the day God created the Heaven and Earth which existed at Genesis 1:2.Genesis 2:4 declares that the following is the history of the Heaven and the Earth in the DAY God created the Heaven and the Earth.If the literal reading of that verse is true everything that took place from Gen. 2:5-4:24 took place in the light period in which God created the Heaven and Earth.There is no date given for the beginning. Four months prior to my presenting my version on a prayer meeting night. I heard an old country preacher preach in a revival from John 3:16, 17, 18. He then spoke about a place called Hell where all those would go who were condemned at stated in 3:18.He that believeth is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.I went home lost, went to bed and went to sleep. Sometime during the night I woke up and the words of that preacher went through my mind. I rehershed the words of John 3:16 and 18.
I realized I was lost and needed to be saved. Laying there looking up to the ceiling I called out to God to save me and give me eternal life. True to His word He sent the Holy Spirit at that moment and sealed my spirit until the day of redemption.I am a blood bought child of God waiting for His return and trying to point others to Him, and His Truth. What difference does it make when the man was in the garden and disobeyed God. If it was a few trillion years ago or an eternity in the past that God created the Heaven and the Earth and the first man.That man disobeyed God and because of that disobedience sin entered into the universe and by that sin death.Every person that has ever walked on the face of the earth from that man until the present is separated from God and under the penalty of sin.Man does not go to the lake of fire because he is a sinner. He goes there because he will not accept the offer of a free full pardon by God through the sacrifice that was made on Calvary. But I am not talking about a pre-adamic race.I am talking about the first man that was formed from the dust of the ground that God breathed the breath of life into and he became a living being. Who was not made in the image/likeness of God but came to be like God according to Gods words in Gen. 3:22.The problem with the word adam is that it is the transliteration of the Hebrew word אדמ which does not mean adam. Its definition is man or mankind. Adam is said to be a transliteration which is false as the transliteration of the three Hebrew letters would be adm.So the word Adam is a creation from the imagination of some so called scholar.There are a lot of things we have been taught that is not true.Have you ever wondered why you can not find an age for Cain or any of his descendants?God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

made/formed/created/, dude I'm not having a semantic talk fest here.All the best with your science fiction carreer. I politely decline, due to my already shakey sanity, to entertain further discussion with you. Make of that what you will but I'm past being bothered what other people think about me, it's none of my business.You may wish to re-join the other thread where you first met me where I finally may be getting somewhere in my demands to get people to "prove" the insane claims your are making in this last post of yours re contradictions between G1 and G2 that dont exist. That said, Im not having the same rediculous argument in two threads at the same timeGod bless.PS: Im glad you have received the Lord, but the stuff your foisting on to people here is a potential stumbling block to the unsaved, you may wish to take some time out to pray about that.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.Edited by NOMA&NOPAAKAAN ORPHAN, : No reason given.

Hi NOMA, The first one made is from the Hebrew word, עשה and has to do with doing work as making something.Example: I take plywood cut it up and then make a cabinet by doing work and putting it together.The second one is from the Hebrew word, יער and has to do with the physical forming something out of existing materials.Example: I take clay and from that clay form a vaise.The third one created is from the Hebrew word, כרא and is about the begining to exist of an entity. It is used for 3 events in Genesis. They are Gen. 1:1, 1:21, 1:27. All other uses of the word in Genesis is refering to one of these events.Example: There is no Universe or Earth. God speaks and they begin to exist. There are no Great Sea Monsters able to swallow Jonah God speaks and they begin to exist. There are no humans who are in the image/likeness of God. God speaks and modern humans male and female begin to exist.Call it semantics if you like but different Hebrew words are used in the Bible when talking about the different events that took place in G1 and G2.I have the idea Moses wrote the story down like God gave it to him. The problem arises because man has been the keeper of the Word and has done a louzy job. In Message 238 I tried to begin a discussion of the contradictions supposidly in the two stories and was immediately told I was off topic by PD.Don't fool yourself about getting somewhere with PD, ringo, Theodoric, jar, Coragyps, or Percy. I have been butting that wall for over 3 years. greyseal has been around a little over a year.jar has a church in california and claims to be a christian. But does not believe the Bilble.Percy is a Deist God started everything and evolution is how He did it.It don't look like you are having any argument in any thread right now. So what headway are you making.You can't refute my version. In fact you have not presented any ingormation that is on the net that does try to refute my version.I have given you ample time and space to prove your version.I have even outlined most of the contradictions (there are a few more I have not mentioned yet) and you have refuted none of them.If you can't convince me a person that will accept what the Bible says at face value, how are you going to convince those folks who believe the Bible is a myth filled with folk lore?Think about it all you have to do is show me where my reasoning is wrong.Standing on your stump waving your arms in the air and telling me I am wrong without explaining where I am wrong will not convince me of anything.My deceased friends Dr. Jerry Falwell and Dr. Albert Garner used the same system but could never answer my questions.Why did the man live to be 930 years old if God said the day you eat the fruit of the tree of the knowedge of good and evil you will die?If that man did not die the same day he ate the fruit then God lied.If God lied about the man dying then why should I believe Him when He says He will give me eternal life?In other words if God lied about the man dying, why should I believe anything in the Bible?I know the standard explanation is that he died spiritually that day then lived 930 years and died physically.But that is not what the text says.The text says: "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."The Hebrew word מןה translated die means to die, kill, have one executed.So it was required that the man who ate the fruit die physically in the same day he ate the fruit.The only way that is possible is if my version is correct. There are no other explanations.Or God lied.If you have a better explanation please share it with me.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

A better explanation.The story is fiction.There was never an Adam, Eve, Garden of Eden, serpent.The story is NOT meant to be literally true but rather to explain the world folk saw.You should challenge everything in the Bible.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Hi jar,Good to see you are still reading my posts. A better explanation for who, You or God?Just because you do not agree with what is recorded in the Bible does not make it false or fiction.It just means you do not have the foggiest idea what the message recorded there is.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

For me of course. The Bible is not meant for God, but for man. To think I could do something or believe something for God only diminishes god and would be an act of pure hubris.It is not a matter of what I believe, it is a matter of the weight of evidence and the vast weight of evidence supports the position that Genesis 2&3 are mythos, fable, "Just So stories". But since you bring the subject of factuality up, there is also overwhelming evidence that they are not factual.You may assert that I do not know what the message is, but then you should explain why the message I do see in the fable is not the correct one and convince me that there is some other more reasonable message.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

woah woah woah, stop right there.If you're using the English version (and truly, I cannot speak about other versions) then what you are supposing is not an open and shut case.Try this on for size:

quote:

---

1: Today, I completed my usual morning routine.
2: I woke up and stretched, and saw that the sun was shining.
3: I got up out of bed and made toast
4: I drank some coffee, and saw that it was good
5: Then I went to work

---

Now, by your standards, versus 2 to 5 would happen specifically after the un-named "morning routine" when in reality, they form part of the routine itself.If that sort of logic is the basis of your assumptions then it is baseless.

A small interjection - and it is somewhat on topic:Just because it is written in the bible and you do agree with it, does not make it true or fact.I don't think you can just assert "it's the bible, ergo it's true" because that puts you on the same treadmill of "it's true because it's the bible, which is the word of god, which is true because it says so in the bible"

Hi greyseal, Nothing you have said here responds to what you quoted.Now if you are refering to Genesis 2:4 you would need to add a little to your schedule.6. You finished your work day.
7. By the time you got home it was dark.
What happened after darkness came would corespond to the time verse 2-5 took place.
8. You ate supper, took a bath and went to bed.
9. When you woke up it was the end of the first day as the second day had begun.Now lets apply that to to what I said in the post you are replying too.Sometime in the beginning God created the Heaven (Universe)
Sometime in the beginning God created the Earth. (PLanet Earth)
During that same day before darkness came. This verse declares the things following in Genesis 2:5-4:24 to be the history (generations) of the day God created the Heaven and the Earth.So the following would take place in the day God created the Heaven and the Earth.1. God caused a mist to rise from the ground which watered the whole face of the ground.2. God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and that form became a living being.3. God planted a garden and made every tree that was pleasant to the sight and good for food to grow out of the ground.4. God took the man and placed him in the garden to dress it and to keep it.5. God told the man if he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die the same day he ate it.6. Out of the ground God formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air.7. The man gave names to all cattle, fowl and every beast of the field.8. God caused the man to sleep and took a rib from his body.9. From that rib God made a woman.10. The woman had a conversation with the serpent and he convinced her it was in her best interest to eat the forbidden fruit.11. She gave to the man and he ate also.12. God kicked them out of His garden and told them they would have work for their food.13. They had two sons Cain the firstborn and Able.14. Cain killed abel because God had favor to an offering Abel offered to God an not to Cain's offering.15. Cain moved away from the location his father was living in to a place called nod.16. There he and his wilf had a son they named Enoch.17. Cain built a city and named it after Enoch.18. Enoch had a son named Irad who had a son named Mehujael who had a son named Methusael who had a son named Lamech. Lamech had two sons named Jabal and Jubal19. Lamech killed a young man.20. We have no further information concerning these people. We have no ages for any of them. The only two deaths recorded was Abel and the young man Lamech killed.We do know they died because they did not exist when this light period ended at Genesis 1:2 when we find the evening of the first light period. Designated a day by God in Genesis 1:5. With the earth covered with water.The man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 died the same day he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.The land mass called earth was covered with water at Genesis 1:2.We are not given any details of how this happened.Then we have the days of Moses telling us of God's refurbshing the earth for modern mankind who were created in the image/likeness of God to live on.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi greyseal, This is a discussion of what is recorded in the KJV Bible as supported by the Hebrew text and the LXX.It is irrelavant whether it is true or false.I am affirming what the text found in the KJV Bible says.If you want to debate whether the Bible is true or false then start a thread to that effect.If you disagree with what I have posted then by all means refute what I have written.Waving your hands and saying the Bible is false is not refutation of what the KJV Bible says.It either says what I have presented that it says or it does not say what I have presented that it says.I set this thread up as a debate.It is not a stump for everyone to jump on and preach their phylosophy. It is to discuss what the KJV Bible says or does not say.Do you care to refute what I have affirmed?God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, But in this thread I am not discussing who the Bible is meant for. I was refering to it agreeing with your personal worldview.What I have affirmed in this thread has nothing to do with whether the Bible is true, a myth, a fable or whatever.It only has to do with what is recorded in the KJV Bible supported by the LXX and Torah.I have affirmed that there is a story in Genesis 1:2-Genesis 2:3.I haave affirmed there is a story in Genesis 2:4-4:24 which is the history of what took place in Genesis 1:1.If you disagree that what I have presented is recorded in the KJV Bible then please present your refutation.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."