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Author Topic:   Hypothesis of Microbes
barbara
Member (Idle past 3703 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 1 of 18 (582138)
09-20-2010 1:10 AM


This is probably not going to be considered a possibility but here goes... This planet is dominated by bacteria and it is still dominated by them. We are made of a fusion from the other 2 domains with many other mergers of different species of bacteria, retroviruses, parasites, etc. As a host we also provide a nice stable temperature which to bacteria is ideal as a home, food in exchange for services that aid the host.

I can't help thinking that bacteria built all larger life forms by using their own cells and simultaneously keeping their single cell identity to serve their purpose while allowing us our own sense of identity.

The entire food web is dependent on microbes that enable the producers to grow and provide for higher levels.The environment is the microbes (invisible to us) but their work is evident in all that we can see: trees, plants, soil, etc. Land mass would be a bare wasteland of nothing without microbes. Science is well aware of this fact. This just covers the land, the ocean life follows the same organization pattern.

The evidence from science journals concerning microbial behavior is astonishing of what they are capable of and all they contribute to keep the planet a living one. I admit I have a teleological mindset but do not accept creationists views of a GOD. I have trouble accepting that life won the lottery by randomly finding the correct combination of chemical reactions to build itself.

I could accept that all levels of life are actively coming up with new methods to ensure their survival. All life have in common is the will to survive and all of them interacting in their own self interest by cooperating with each to ensure their future is evident in the patterns you see in nature and in ourselves.

Since all life forms work in colonies of kin and non related beings within our bodies and throughout the entire biosphere, directed existence speaks for all living entities on the planet.

The only difference is eukaryotes in larger forms are entirely dependent on bacteria for survival while the opposite is true in bacteria in that we are replaceable entities. The fossil evidence proves we are replaceable entities in that 99% are extinct while the bacteria have remained the same since their origin. Sure they gained new genes as they moved through time but their identity still is microbial.

My opinion is based on my desire to learn of life's history and it involves educating myself in all fields of science and knowledge from other sources. Since I am not going through the traditional route of a college education, I must rely on the Internet to obtain it. The presentation used in scientific findings to make it more appealing to the reader (I hope this is not the case) and it is the truth is where I arrive at my thoughts on the subject.

Any impute to convince me that this is not correct and why specifically would be appreciated.


Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 18 (582173)
09-20-2010 6:10 AM


*** Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
*** copied here from the Hypothesis of Microbes *** in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 3 of 18 (582226)
09-20-2010 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by barbara
09-20-2010 1:10 AM


Vessels of Survival
There is a lot to answer here.

The first major push back is the connotation of "intent" and "purpose" on the part of bacteria. These are human constructs with no force in the universe. Bacteria are, most simply, very flexible life forms that adapt, through evolution, to various environments be that in a crack in the rock deep in the crust or in your nasal cavity.

The second point is to consider further back from bacteria. Regardless of which abiogenic model is considered, a self-replicating chain of molecules came into existence and, under the forces of evolution, complex chemical structures resulted. Those self-replicating chains that blindly, un-purposefully, evolved structures that aided its replication survived. The complex chemical structures around which these evolving self-replicating chains were encased were simply survival vessels aiding in replication.

From viruses to bacteria, from oak trees to pretty girls, all "life" is merely the complex structure, the survival vessel, for the evolving complex forms of the original self-replicating chain that started this whole thing off some 3+ billion years ago.

Since all life forms work in colonies of kin and non related beings within our bodies and throughout the entire biosphere, directed existence speaks for all living entities on the planet.

This is fallacious. You need to reconsider.

The fossil evidence proves we are replaceable entities in that 99% are extinct while the bacteria have remained the same since their origin.

This "interpretation" of the fossil record "proves" no such thing.

I will leave the obvious religious points you make to others.

Edited by AZPaul3, : spileng prublims


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by barbara, posted 09-20-2010 1:10 AM barbara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by barbara, posted 09-21-2010 3:32 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
barbara
Member (Idle past 3703 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 4 of 18 (582493)
09-21-2010 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AZPaul3
09-20-2010 12:37 PM


Re: Vessels of Survival
Then to me it is best to visualize microbes and viruses as machines that built life forms out of their own machines to give us the illusion that we here for a purpose. Wrong choice of words, the illusion part was a side effect of the evolving self awareness part of our brains.

A correct definition of life is necessary right now even if it is arbitrary but we need a reference point. There is just too much information of new discoveries about life that all educational materials that previously describe life's processes is contradicting what is known now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AZPaul3, posted 09-20-2010 12:37 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 09-21-2010 11:41 PM barbara has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 5 of 18 (582545)
09-21-2010 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by barbara
09-21-2010 3:32 PM


Re: Vessels of Survival
There are dozens of definitions of "life" each with its own pluses and minuses. Unfortunately, for each definition you try to make there exists something that just doesn't fit.

The problem is that "life" is also a human construct with no efficacy outside the human need to classify things.

To have your definition of "life" you need to draw a line somewhere in the chemistry from "non-life" to "life." It is like drawing a line at a specific minute to determine the exact switch from Early- to Mid-Bronze age. Bad analogy. It is even worse than this. Try drawing a line between "non-history" and "history."

The chemistry rests on a continuum from that very first simple self-replicating molecule all the way to your mother with no convenient spaces or lines. So where is the demarcation in this chemistry between "non-life" and "life"? There is none.

The same is true between colonies of bacteria, colonies of bacteria with some members having specialized functions, colonies with more advanced schemes of specialization, all the way up to single multi-cellular organisms. And anyone looking will have an impossible task determining the lines between these.

The definition of "life" that I have adopted is wholly inadequate, but it is the best one I have ever found that fits the continuum. Life is blind complex chemistry in continuous action.

I understand this is not something that fits well with a religiously oriented person. But if you want a scientific answer to your speculation that bacteria, with purpose and intent, created us so they would have some place to live, then, sorry, no, that is not at all evident. What is evident is that we, and bacteria, are the evolved survival vessels for the evolved versions of the first replicators. All without purpose or intent; just blind complex chemistry in continuous action.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : clarifications


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by barbara, posted 09-21-2010 3:32 PM barbara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by barbara, posted 09-22-2010 10:12 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
barbara
Member (Idle past 3703 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 6 of 18 (582602)
09-22-2010 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
09-21-2010 11:41 PM


Re: Vessels of Survival
"Life is blind complex chemistry in continuous action" if this is the absolute truth then I believe if or when most people finally accept it and abandon their religious beliefs it will produce chaos and rebellion towards government and its laws that control them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 09-21-2010 11:41 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 09-22-2010 12:36 PM barbara has not yet responded
 Message 9 by Strongbow, posted 09-23-2010 7:55 AM barbara has not yet responded
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 09-23-2010 2:20 PM barbara has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 7 of 18 (582603)
09-22-2010 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by barbara
09-20-2010 1:10 AM


Since I am not going through the traditional route of a college education, I must rely on the Internet to obtain it.

Then you must be very very careful. There is an inordinate amount of bullshit on the web. I seriously would not just fish around for what you can find. The biggest problem you will have is your confirmation bias: this alone makes informal self study difficult.

Surely formal education is better than googling things?

I believe if or when most people finally accept it and abandon their religious beliefs it will produce chaos and rebellion towards government and its laws that control them.

I think you will find that high religiousity in a society means high crime. Just look at the US.

Edited by Larni, : Second point


This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 8 of 18 (582635)
09-22-2010 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by barbara
09-22-2010 10:12 AM


Re: Vessels of Survival
it will produce chaos and rebellion towards government and its laws that control them.

Connect the dots for me, please. I do not see the logical connection between the acceptance of science and the anarchy you speculate here.

If you are proposing that the old contradiction in terms "religious morality" is what is keeping peace in society then you should see other threads in this forum first.

Are Fundamentalists Inherently Immoral
Many Christians Lack Responsibility
Is religion good for us?

plus a whole lot others. Search "morality", "religious morality", "secular morality" in forum Search.

If there are other reasons you see this anarchy resulting then please explain.


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Strongbow
Junior Member (Idle past 3811 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 09-16-2010


Message 9 of 18 (582722)
09-23-2010 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by barbara
09-22-2010 10:12 AM


Re: Vessels of Survival
quote:
I believe if or when most people finally accept it and abandon their religious beliefs it will produce chaos and rebellion towards government and its laws that control them.

Ummm.... why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by barbara, posted 09-22-2010 10:12 AM barbara has not yet responded

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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 10 of 18 (582725)
09-23-2010 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Strongbow
09-23-2010 7:55 AM


Re: Vessels of Survival
Welcome to EvC!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe if or when most people finally accept it and abandon their religious beliefs it will produce chaos and rebellion towards government and its laws that control them.

Ummm.... why?

Because there is no reason to behave in a decent way towards others unless one is a xian.

I was shocked to discover it, too; but there you go.

Edited by Larni, : welcome


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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19080
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 11 of 18 (582789)
09-23-2010 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by barbara
09-22-2010 10:12 AM


Re: Vessels of Survival
barbara writes:

"Life is blind complex chemistry in continuous action" if this is the absolute truth...


You probably shouldn't be looking for absolute truth. People who find absolute truth tend to kill other people who have found different absolute truths.

barbara writes:

... then I believe if or when most people finally accept it and abandon their religious beliefs it will produce chaos and rebellion towards government and its laws that control them.


Laws are a survival mechanism created by chemistry in the first place. The real danger is when religion and its absolute truths override the natural survival mechanisms in the name of "higher purpose".


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 12 of 18 (582792)
09-23-2010 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Larni
09-23-2010 8:20 AM


Re: Vessels of Survival
Because there is no reason to behave in a decent way towards others unless one is a xian.

Elsewhere I was informed that as an atheist I was actually a christian inside. Now you're telling me that all this goody two-shoes stuff I've been doing is because I really am a christian?

So in a week here I've gone from atheist to christian-atheist to full blown christian?

Any other surprises you folks aren't telling me?

Woman? Black? Gay?

By the way, since I am now a christian do I get to wear one of those pointy hats?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Larni, posted 09-23-2010 8:20 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by barbara, posted 09-23-2010 3:07 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 14 by Larni, posted 09-23-2010 3:27 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
barbara
Member (Idle past 3703 days)
Posts: 167
Joined: 07-19-2010


Message 13 of 18 (582797)
09-23-2010 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by AZPaul3
09-23-2010 2:41 PM


Re: Vessels of Survival
As you are an individual I understand your attitude. It is the masses as a whole that is what i worry about. For example, Hurricane Katrina in its aftermath created abandonment of laws and people naturally resorted to becoming a extremely dangerous animal because their "God" and our government did not save many of them and those that witnessed it immediately became destructive and violent. God and government are not separate entities even though they pretend that they are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 09-23-2010 2:41 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 14 of 18 (582803)
09-23-2010 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by AZPaul3
09-23-2010 2:41 PM


Re: Vessels of Survival
As you are now a xian GET AWAY FROM THOSE KIDS!.

Seriously, I never knew atheist were xians, as well.

It seems that on mature reflection the last thing any one would want to be is a xian (pointy white hats, bad touch, holocaust, sectarian violence in N Ireland and the UK, bombing abortion clinics, spreading of AIDs through 'no contraception', and a whole host of bastardry in the past).

Glad I'm agnostic!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 09-23-2010 2:41 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 09-23-2010 4:05 PM Larni has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 15 of 18 (582805)
09-23-2010 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by barbara
09-23-2010 3:07 PM


Re: Vessels of Survival
God and government are not separate entities even though they pretend that they are.

Don't be so fucking stupid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by barbara, posted 09-23-2010 3:07 PM barbara has not yet responded

  
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