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Author Topic:   Which religion's creation story should be taught?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 181 of 331 (580976)
09-12-2010 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by JRTjr
09-12-2010 6:27 PM


Re: ‘creator’ not a reference to the Christian God.
However, It is a Federal Government document
It can't be a "Federal Government" document since it predates the existence of the US Federal Government by a decade.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 182 of 331 (580980)
09-12-2010 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by JRTjr
09-12-2010 6:27 PM


Possible Christian Curriculum
So here is the beginning outline to teach the Christian Creation Myths.
The Gods
Story 1: source Genesis 1.
This god is best described a competent, aloof, overarching, creating by an act of will alone; but separate from anything created, with no interaction, impersonal, ammoral.
Story 2: source Genesis 2.
This god is kind of a bumbler, hands on tinkerer, not very bright, unsure, working by trial and error, making mistakes but personal, involved, learning on the job.
Then the teacher could go on to show the order of creation in each myth.
Next the sub-plots found in the Genesis 2 myth could be covered.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 183 of 331 (580990)
09-12-2010 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by JRTjr
09-12-2010 6:27 PM


Wrong
It is a Federal Government document
Not it isn't. Neither is the Mayflower Compact or the Articles of Confederation.
Please, read what Thomas Jefferson (One of the ‘Deists’ who sighed ‘The Declaration of Independence’) said when he implemented ‘Thanksgiving’ ‘General Thanksgiving By the PRESIDENT of the United States Of America A PROCLAMATION
Excuse me while I laugh a bit. Cutting and pasting from fundy sites will always get you in trouble. Did you even bother to follow the link?
Let me see who signed it.
Oh George Washington. Not Thomas Jefferson.
quote:
No Thanksgiving proclamations were issued by Thomas Jefferson
Source
If you don't like wiki as a source. I can find dozens more that will confirm this.
Maybe you were confused between Thomas Jefferson and Jefferson Davis.
quote:
Once more upon the plains of Manassas have our armies been blessed by the Lord of Hosts with a triumph over our enemies. It is my privilege to invite you once more to His footstool, not now in the garb of fasting and sorrow, but with joy and gladness, to render thanks for the great mercies received at His hand. A few months since, and our enemies poured forth their invading legions upon our soil. They laid waste our fields, polluted our altars and violated the sanctity of our homes. Around our capital they gathered their forces, and with boastful threats, claimed it as already their prize. The brave troops which rallied to its defense have extinguished these vain hopes, and, under the guidance of the same almighty hand, have scattered our enemies and driven them back in dismay. Uniting these defeated forces and the various armies which had been ravaging our coasts with the army of invasion in Northern Virginia, our enemies have renewed their attempt to subjugate us at the very place where their first effort was defeated, and the vengeance of retributive justice has overtaken the entire host in a second and complete overthrow.
To this signal success accorded to our arms in the East has been graciously added another equally brilliant in the West. On the very day on which our forces were led to victory on the Plains of Manassas, in Virginia, the same Almighty arm assisted us to overcome our enemies at Richmond, in Kentucky. Thus, at one and the same time, have two great hostile armies been stricken down, and the wicked designs of their armies been set at naught.
In such circumstances, it is meet and right that, as a people, we should bow down in adoring thankfulness to that gracious God who has been our bulwark and defense, and to offer unto him the tribute of thanksgiving and praise. In his hand is the issue of all events, and to him should we, in an especial manner, ascribe the honor of this great deliverance.
Now, therefore, I, Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States, do issue this, my proclamation, setting apart Thursday, the 18th day of September inst., as a day of prayer and thanksgiving to Almighty God for the great mercies vouchsafed to our people, and more especially for the triumph of our arms at Richmond and Manassas; and I do hereby invite the people of the Confederate States to meet on that day at their respective places of public worship, and to unite in rendering thanks and praise to God for these great mercies, and to implore Him to conduct our country safely through the perils which surround us, to the final attainment of the blessings of peace and security.
Given under my hand and the seal of the Confederate States, at Richmond, this fourth day of September, A.D.1862.
Source
Gee how did that lord of hosts do for them?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 184 of 331 (581021)
09-12-2010 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by JRTjr
09-04-2010 7:38 AM


Re: Except it does violate the 1st amendment!?
As I have been trying to point out ‘your idea of what President Jefferson called ‘separation of Church and State’’ is not what even he meant by it.
I do't see how your quotations are even relevant to separation.
Please, read what Thomas Jefferson (One of the ‘Deists’ who sighed ‘The Declaration of Independence’) said when he implemented ‘Thanksgiving’ ‘General Thanksgiving By the PRESIDENT of the United States Of America A PROCLAMATION’
As has been pointed out, that was Washington.
But while we're on the subject, let's hear what Madison, who wrote the First Amendment, had to say about religious proclamations by the executive:
Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.
[...]
Religious proclamations by the Executive recommending thanksgivings & fasts are shoots from the same root with the legislative acts reviewed.
Altho' recommendations only, they imply a religious agency, making no part of the trust delegated to political rulers.
So the author of the First Amendment felt that proclamations such as Washington's were an encroachment on separation. The fact that Washington did nonetheless make such a proclamation doesn't mean that it's an example of someone keeping on the right side of the wall.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4305 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 185 of 331 (584136)
09-30-2010 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Dr Adequate
08-05-2010 7:50 PM


Establishment Clause!?
Dear Dr Adequate,
Thank you for your responses, and your interest in this topic.
Dr Adequate writes:
You keep ignoring the Establishment Clause.
Since the entire paragraph you quoted was directly relating to the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, and it is often miss labels as ‘the Establishment Clause’ of our Constitution, I am forced to conclude that you are speaking of some other Clause in some other document that I am ignoring.
I do not want to ignore any facts so, if you would, what Establishment Clause are you speaking of?
Thank you for your time and effort,
JRTjr

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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4305 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 186 of 331 (584138)
09-30-2010 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by bluescat48
08-08-2010 5:08 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
Dear bluescat48,
Allowing something to sit on public display is not ‘making’ a law.
Sorry, please, try again,
JRTjr

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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 187 of 331 (584140)
09-30-2010 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by jar
08-22-2010 6:14 PM


Re: NOT founded for religious/Christian reasons
since the 2 exclude each other,
i think you should teach the greek creation story, it makes way more sense
http://www.cs.williams.edu/~lindsey/myths/myths_16.html the whole story

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 188 of 331 (584141)
09-30-2010 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by frako
09-30-2010 3:19 PM


Re: NOT founded for religious/Christian reasons
I think teaching many of the different creation myths is a great idea because each gives us some insight into how a particular people of a given era thought.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 189 of 331 (584159)
09-30-2010 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by jar
09-30-2010 3:24 PM


Re: NOT founded for religious/Christian reasons
strangely it can be molded to fit science
In the beginning there was an empty darkness. The only thing in this void was Nyx, a bird with black wings. With the wind she laid a golden egg and for ages she sat upon this egg. Finally life began to stir in the egg and out of it rose Eros, the god of love. One half of the shell rose into the air and became the sky and the other became the Earth. Eros named the sky Uranus and the Earth he named Gaia. Then Eros made them fall in love.
big bang, some stuff made everything else one part of the mater made the earth.
After much fighting the younger generation won. With Zeus as their leader, they began to furnish Gaia with life and Uranus with stars.
after much time the earth formed the stars formed and life got started
Soon the Earth lacked only two things: man and animals. Zeus summoned his sons Prometheus (fore-thought) and Epimetheus (after-thought). He told them to go to Earth and create men and animals and give them each a gift.
plants where the first thing on the soil, now its time to evolve some animals and some intelligence
Prometheus set to work forming men in the image of the gods and Epimetheus worked on the animals. As Epimetheus worked he gave each animal he created one of the gifts. After Epimetheus had completed his work Prometheus finally finished making men. However when he went to see what gift to give man Epimetheus shamefacedly informed him that he had foolishly used all the gifts.
after the animals evolved we need some intelligence lets make a man from the ape like creature, and give him something that will set his dominance
Distressed, Prometheus decided he had to give man fire, even though gods were the only ones meant to have access to it. As the sun god rode out into the world the next morning Prometheus took some of the fire and brought it back to man. He taught his creation how to take care of it and then left them
lets teach the man how to use fire he can use the principle to asert his dominance on the planet. nooooosss he might get too smart too fast!!
Out of the box flew all of the horrors which plague the world today - pain, sickness, envy, greed. Upon hearing Pandora's screams Epimetheus rushed home and fastened the lid shut, but all of the evils had already escaped.
once self awarnes kicks in man finds out he got screwed
Later that night they heard a voice coming from the box saying,
"Let me out. I am hope."
well things might get better we have brains after all maybe we can get rid of all this bad stuff

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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4305 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 190 of 331 (584165)
09-30-2010 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by jar
08-08-2010 5:15 PM


Teaching Creation myths!?
Dear Jar,
Although I agree with you that a course in Comparative religion or Sacred Studies should be part of a basic education. The Question was:
If we are to teach creation in public schools, which creation story should we teach? Do we teach Genesis? If so which version of Genesis? Do we teach the story of the Norse gods carving the world from the bones of giants? Or the Hindu belief that the world is God's dream? Heck, even Christians don't agree on a literal six-day creation less than 10'000 years ago or Genesis as metaphor for divinely inspired evolution...
I say evolution belongs in the science classroom and creation belongs in comparative religion...
{MexicanHotChocolate’s Message #1}
I believe what MexicanHotChocolate was asking is ‘should any of the creation stories/myths be specifically taught in science classes as scientifically plausible?’
Thank you for your interest,
JRTjr

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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 191 of 331 (584173)
09-30-2010 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by JRTjr
09-30-2010 4:47 PM


Re: Teaching Creation myths!?
I believe what MexicanHotChocolate was asking is ‘should any of the creation stories/myths be specifically taught in science classes as scientifically plausible?’
MHC in the OP writes:
I say evolution belongs in the science classroom and creation belongs in comparative religion...
Dude, you quoted him and you still misconstrued what he said? Mythical stories do not belong in science class. End of discussion. They are not scientific.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4305 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 192 of 331 (584176)
09-30-2010 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by hooah212002
08-10-2010 4:26 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
Dear Hooah212002,
Thank you for your participation. I will try to remember to not use color when responding to you. You may also find it helpful to copy and past my posts to your favorite word processor to read it more clearly.
Hooah212002 writes:
Do you even know what atheism is?????? I'll tell you what it is NOT: a religion.
Atheism: noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Origin: 1580—90; < Gk the ( os ) godless + -ism
JRTjr writes:
Religion, according to ‘Dictionary.Com’ is:
2. A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. The body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
6. Something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
(Dictionary.com Unabridged. Based on the Random House Dictionary, Random House, Inc. 2010.)
So, despite your unfounded assertions, according to Dictionary.com ‘Atheism’ is belief which is the vary definition of ‘religion’.
Thank you again for your input,
JRTjr

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 Message 159 by hooah212002, posted 08-10-2010 4:26 PM hooah212002 has replied

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 193 of 331 (584177)
09-30-2010 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by JRTjr
09-30-2010 5:28 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
Take a better look at the rest of the definitions there smart guy. Saying atheism is a religion is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby or bald is a hair color.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 194 of 331 (584183)
09-30-2010 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by JRTjr
09-30-2010 4:47 PM


Re: Teaching Creation myths!?
I believe what MexicanHotChocolate was asking is ‘should any of the creation stories/myths be specifically taught in science classes as scientifically plausible?’
Thank you for your interest,
JRTjr
Of course not.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4305 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 195 of 331 (584324)
10-01-2010 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by bluescat48
08-10-2010 5:40 PM


The Universe(s) !?!?!?!?
Dear Bluescat48,
Bluescat48 writes:
what else is there besides the universe. By definition, universe is everything.
Universe:
—noun
1. the totality of known or supposed objects and phenomena throughout space; the cosmos; macrocosm.
(Dictionary.com Unabridged Based on the Random House Dictionary, Random House, Inc. 2010.)
n 1. astronomy the aggregate of all existing matter, energy, and space. (Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition 2009 William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 HarperCollins Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009)
Multi-verse:
n astronomy the aggregate of all existing matter, of which the universe is but a tiny fragment (Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition 2009 William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 HarperCollins Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009)
If you know anything about Quantum Scientific theory, you would know that Science now tells use that the four dimensions of what we call our ‘Universe’ is not all that there is.
Scientists are now theorizing that there may be many, if not an infinite number of, universes. {May I point out here the Bible states emphatically that there is something beyond this known universe.}
Thank you, again, for your input,
JRTjr

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