|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,422 Year: 3,679/9,624 Month: 550/974 Week: 163/276 Day: 3/34 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Shouldn't Churches Learn from Deconversion Stories? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
On FaceBook, former fundamentalist Ed Babinski referenced a blog, Honest Evangelism and the Importance of Deconversion. In it, the author, Dean Thomas of The Pines Training Centre in Australia (judging by the URL), mentions some notes he rediscovered on deconversion and discusses the experience of deconversion as well as referencing Babinski's book, Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former Fundamentalists. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to distinguish between Thomas' own words and any text that he is quoting. Some excerpts (possibly his own experience, but more likely from his rediscovered notes):
quote: Then from Thomas' note's comments on Babinski's book, which is a collection of 33 deconversion autobiographies of "from people once active and highly visible within the ranks of Fundamentalist Christianity":
quote: Dean Thomas then discusses briefly how that article and his dealings with the deconverted on-line have changed his approach to evangelism. My point here is that this is a case in which an evangelist has listened to the deconverted and has thought about what he has heard and as a result has reevaluated his approach. Why can't other evangelists and their churches do the same? The practical answer is that those others and their churches almost never hear those deconversion stories, and when they do then they discount them or even deny that deconversion ever happens. Nowadays when one leaves their current employment, whether voluntarily or not, part of the process is a departure interview: the newly ex-employee is asked about his experience working for the company and to identify any problems that he encountered. IOW, the company wants to know what they are doing wrong. Churches have no departure interviews, so they don't get any feedback from ex-members, except for the ones sufficiently disgruntled to write a nasty-gram. Ex-members simply drop out, stop attending, lose contact with the church. Ignorant of what it had done to drive those ex-members away, the church continues along its way driving even more members away. The questions are:1. Would it benefit churches and evangelists to learn why Christians of their own persuasion deconvert? 2. Should churches and evangelists try to learn what they're doing wrong from deconverts and try to correct their methods accordingly? 3. How would churches make up for the current lack of departure interviews? Edited by dwise1, : changed topic title to something a bit more descriptive (Should -> Shouldn't)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
Thought of this too late, but it probably would have been better if the title were: Shouldn't Churches Learn from Deconversion Stories?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
Have evangelists and evangelical churches actually studied the problem of deconversion? Do they really have a handle on how many members they are losing to deconversion as opposed to migration to other congregations? (as per Christian pollster George Barna, most "church growth" is simply "new" members having moved from another church) Have they actually studied the real reasons for deconversion?
It is my impression that very few have investigate this, let alone given it anything more than cursory thought. I am sure that they think that they know that the cause of deconversion is evolution, but they haven't done any actual research to verify that it is. They are just making assumptions based on their dogma and they hold onto those assumptions despite the evidence. After all, they cannot admit that their theology has serious problems which are the real cause for most deconversions. We've all seen evangelicals go to any extreme rather than to seriously discuss and consider the reasons that ex-Christians give for having deconverted, including the classic "Then they really weren't true Christians to begin with."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
It is a tactic of desperation, an admission that they have failed, that the battle to retain their dogma has already been lost and that their beliefs are doomed to fall into the trash heap of all the other failed religions. Not an admission, for to admit to the truth would doom their own faith as well. More of an unspoken realization, subconcious even, rationalized into something else. Around 1970 there was a sci-fi novel called Macroscope (by Zelasney? it's been quite a while -- {ABE: no, by Piers Anthony}). A kind of background radiation or neutrino-like particles had been discovered that was affected by everything it passed through, such that a computer connected to a detector could recreate images of everywhere those particles had been, thus we could visually see anywhere in the galaxy. They also discovered transmission though this medium, which they called The Messenger. The Messenger would always start its broadcast at the last place the viewer had gotten to (from the beginning for first-timers) and establish a common language for understanding the rest of the message, which revealed all kinds of very advanced technology. Superimposed on The Messenger was The Destroyer that would destroy the mind of anyone who understood the Messenger. The story's protagonist, Archer, wasn't smart enough to understand the message, so he'd view the Messenger and then relate what he had seen to the others who could then apply it. Because he could view the message without understanding it, he was able to avoid The Destroyer. And that is the analogy I see in operation with fundamentalists. They need to understand what's happening in the real world in order to deal with very real problems. But if they do understand what's really happening, then that could destroy their faith -- either they imagine that it will or it actually will, or both. So they avoid the truth instead of having to deal with it. That works for most whose everyday lives never need to deal with science or the truth. But those who must deal with such things need to find other ways to avoid the truth, other ways to understand just enough to get by but not enough to realize the truth and so endanger their faith. This is especially true of active creationists who try to carry on the fight against evolution; they need to know enough to discuss the subject matter, but not enough to actually understand the subject matter. Edited by dwise1, : author of Macroscope
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
When I gave a presentation on "creation science" at church (UU), I expressed concern about the danger that "creation science" poses for its followers' faith and I was surprised by one woman's reaction of "So what? Deserves them right." While I pleased to see the atheist population grow, I nonetheless would prefer that people became atheists for the right reasons rather than for the wrong. That they had outgrown religion instead of quitting in anger and resentment. For one thing, the angry deconverts would be carrying with them the lessons their religion had taught them about what atheism is and how atheists act and so they would try to live according to those pernicious lies and make a mess of things. Nobody benefits in that scenario.
And, yes, those churches do need to change their teachings, though not as drastically as you think. Mainly, they need to change their idolizing the Bible, painting it as perfect and believing that if even a single part of it is found to be false then God is a liar and the entire Bible and Christianity need to be thrown on the trash heap (that is what many have adamantly proclaimed to me; I guess that Matt 7:20 doesn't help much either). It is primarily that biblioidolatry that forces them into their avoidance tactics and into embracing lies and deceptions such as "creation science". Instead of believing that their fallible human theology is infallible, they need to realize that if their theology teaches them something that clearly is not true (eg, earth no older than 10,000 years), then it is not God that is wrong, but rather their own theology and that that theology needs to be corrected. I view their inflexible refusal to admit that their theology could be wrong is a major cause of deconversion. Now mind you, when I first entered into creation/evolution discussion in 1985 (after having studied the matter for a few years) I thought that once those creationists realized that their claims were wrong then they would correct their position. It took me a few years to figure out what was actually going on inside their beady little heads. Similarly, I would hope that churches and evangelicals taking the time to learn from deconversion stories would then work out ways to engage in more understanding and productive discussions with ex-Christians and other atheists. Instead, I'm sure, they will undoubtedly try to exploit that new knowledge to their own devious ends. After all, regardless of how they cloak themselves, inside they are still ravening wolves.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
*Yes, this is all sarcasm. Who would honestly be so stupid as to think these things (apart from creationists)? The sad thing is, you are completely correct in that assessment. Dan Barker, co-prez of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, is now considered America's leading atheist but he grew up a fundamentalist and also served as a fundamentalist preacher, having been personally called to the ministry by God Himself. He described the situation with fundamentalists as being when "their theology becomes their psychology." They don't think as we normals do, but rather as their theology dictates. For example, when I was going through my divorce, a friend in a local megachurch's singles ministry (I was helping them balance out their dance classes) talked me into going through their DivorceCare class (partially in order to keep me in the dance classes). Just a general call out to everyone present: if you are a non-Christian, do not let anyone talk you into DivorceCare and, if you are a Christian of or approaching the Baptist persuasion, please do not ever talk a non-Christian into taking that class. The fundamentalist view of relationships -- of practically everything -- is different than that of normals. For example, two Christian counselors (yes, they even need to have their own counselors to handle their kind of psychology) held a long series of weekly seminars on relationships, which used some of the same concepts as normals' counselors do, but everything had to be motivated by "because that's what Jesus wants you to do" and everything had to be evaluated on how it would bring you closer to God or to Jesus or to both (ignoring just exactly how their theology views the Two as being One-And-The-Same). Well, those two counselors were nowhere near as bad as DivorceCare was. There were kernels of truth presented, but they were lost under a mountain of Christian chaff (AKA "theological BS"). The overriding theme throughout was that it was impossible for anyone to recover from divorce, but rather only Jesus could possibly do it for you. Which, of course, means that only Christians, Christians of the right persuasion (ie, theirs), could ever possibly recover; atheists are therefore SOL ("out of luck"). Basically, the way I view the OP is that every single company/service/endeavor that provides a service to a group of people (I would think that we could say that a church provides a service to its congregation, in that the religious leaders of a church is to minister to its members) needs to monitor how well it's doing its job. So every single company/service/endeavor needs to track those instances in which it fails to provide that service. A company needs to pay attention to customer complaints. Similarly, a membership-based organization needs to track which members choose to leave at least to the point of determining why they had chosen to leave. That is very valuable information for the organization, because it will help them to determine where and why they are failing. Any organization that wants to remain in business should very strongly want to get their hands on that information. That is why I feel that churches would want to learn why ex-Christians deconverted. Or why former members had left and gone to other churches and even to other denominations or religions. But at the same time, precisely those organizations who really need that kind of information (namely, fundamentalist and evangelical churches) at the same time will go out of their way to deny that information. Any normal organization would do anything to get their hands on that kind of data, but then we are not talking about normals. The real reasons for members leaving run afoul with fundamentalist theology, so those churches have to deny those real reasons and substitute their own rationalizations. As we have seen over and over again, they allow their theology to trump reality. No, they insist on having their theology trump reality.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024