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Author Topic:   Why is your religon true and not the religion of others?
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 11 of 47 (584707)
10-03-2010 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by slevesque
10-03-2010 1:35 PM


slevesque writes:
Because I think I have evidence for the existence of the christian God, but not the others.
May I ask how old you were when you decided to become a Christian, and whether the initial decision was based on evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by slevesque, posted 10-03-2010 1:35 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by slevesque, posted 10-04-2010 4:17 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 22 of 47 (584808)
10-04-2010 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by slevesque
10-04-2010 4:17 AM


Analysis
slevesque writes:
I was raised in a christian family. I was 14-15 when I decided to take a step back and figure out if any of this made any sense. You know, ''age of reason'' where you get off cruise control and actually take the steering wheel.
Yet the overwhelming majority of people in the world who are not "raised in a christian family" do not come to the same conclusion when they are 14 - 15, or later in life, do they?
I have an analytical mind.........
Really?
slevesque writes:
But of course, your very question is totally irrelevant.
Not if you analyse it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by slevesque, posted 10-04-2010 4:17 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by slevesque, posted 10-04-2010 10:51 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 30 of 47 (584880)
10-04-2010 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by slevesque
10-04-2010 10:51 AM


Re: Analysis
slevesque writes:
Guess what, the overwhelming majority of people in the world also do not come to the same conclusion you do on this. What a surprise.
Actually, on Christianity being true, they do. But that wasn't my point. You know as well as I do that people who are raised in Christian families are far more likely to be christians than those who aren't, and that the same applies with all other religions.
This should strongly suggest to your analytical mind that childhood upbringing is the major factor in determining religious beliefs, not evidence.
slevesque writes:
If you want to say I was influenced-brainwashed by my parents, say it. Because I got a feeling this is what you are really implying.
Indeed. Don't you agree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by slevesque, posted 10-04-2010 10:51 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by slevesque, posted 10-04-2010 2:34 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 33 of 47 (584892)
10-04-2010 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by slevesque
10-04-2010 2:34 PM


Re: Analysis
slevesque writes:
Are you actually suggesting that child upbringing influences how a person will view the world when older ???
Wow, and in other news: Water still wet
Am I to take this to mean that you agree with me that your upbringing is a far better explanation of your preference for Christianity over other religions than the explanation you gave earlier, which concerned "evidence"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by slevesque, posted 10-04-2010 2:34 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by slevesque, posted 10-04-2010 3:29 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 35 of 47 (584919)
10-04-2010 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by slevesque
10-04-2010 3:29 PM


Re: Analysis
slevesque writes:
The only reason why you want this ''upbringing'' to be applied as ''the far better explanation'' to me, but not to an atheist, is really only an attempted rationalisation. You can't accept the fact that my belief would settle on how I perceive evidence, so you just find some secondary factor and claim it to be the main factor.
No. I most certainly accept the fact that your belief is settling how you see evidence.
My suggestion is based on observation. The overwhelming majority of the world's religious people do actually follow the beliefs of their recent ancestors, although frequently with slight adjustments.
You can look around the world, and identify many countries or regions that have exactly the same majority religion as they did 100 years ago, when a completely different set of individuals made up the population.
So, if we ask why the majority of Egyptians are Sunni Muslims, the majority of Iranians are Shia Muslims, the majority of South Americans are Catholic Christians, the majority of North Americans protestant Christians, and the majority of Indians, Hindus, our analytical minds can find an easy answer.
Evidence does not seem to play much of a role in their "choices", if any.
So, my conclusion as to the most likely central explanation for your religious preference is perfectly reasonable (and not personal, I might add).
I know that many evidentialists in all religions genuinely believe that they have chosen their religions based centrally on evidence, but I've never been aware of any evidence to support their many different views.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by slevesque, posted 10-04-2010 3:29 PM slevesque has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by iano, posted 10-04-2010 6:21 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 38 of 47 (584936)
10-04-2010 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by iano
10-04-2010 6:21 PM


Re: Analysis
iano writes:
Your re-write only goes to underscores slevesques' point
I missed out the "on", but I equally agree that his belief settles on how he perceives evidence. It works both ways.
I'm not doubting that he perceives himself as being Christian based on evidence, as my comment on the beliefs of evidentialists of various religions implies.
iano writes:
In other words, it's impossible to establish your point for want a way of figuring out who the true Christian is. By all means use the measuring stick of self-identification. It need not be a useful one.
You seem to be agreeing with me that most people go with the cultural flow. Of course I'm talking about self-identification, and my point is that most people's self-identification is cultural.
You and slevesque are self-identified Christians from predominently Christian cultures. That's all I've got to go on. I'm hardly in a position to judge whether or not iano is part of a small minority of genuine Christians, am I?
Do you think you are an exception to the rule, and that you would have become a Christian had you been born to Hindu parents somewhere in rural India?
Edited by bluegenes, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by iano, posted 10-04-2010 6:21 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 10-05-2010 5:10 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 42 of 47 (585023)
10-05-2010 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by iano
10-05-2010 5:10 AM


Re: No True Christian
iano writes:
Rather than 'agree', wouldn't it be fair to say you 'believe' this to be the case?
With the "on", both.
iano writes:
I don't think there's any doubt that he is a Christian based on evidence. I think your objection centres on what you feel is a wrong conclusion drawn regarding the evidence. The Bible (for example) is evidence submitted into both his and your court. Slevesque examines it, finds it's astounding wisdom and delicate coherancy an sign of a source beyond man.
And Muslim scholars examine it, and find it a corruption of the truth. Do you think childhood background could be a factor for both Slevesque and the Muslims in their perception of the evidence?
iano writes:
You examine it and conclude it (perhaps) the musings of a bunch of sheepherders.
I conclude that it's a human work from a specific evolving culture in the middle-east with a strong ethno-centric bias.
iano writes:
Might not be the problem with you .. and not the evidence?
Pretty much anything "might" be. But I certainly wasn't programmed in childhood with the view that the Bible is an entirely human work.
iano writes:
I've pointed out one part of the problem for you: not all who say "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of God.
How do you know this?
iano writes:
Another part of the problem is that not all who are saved will have self-identified as Christians.
How do you know this?
iano writes:
How could they do so if they've never heard the Christian gospel.
Indeed. Of course, selecting a number of prophets from each inhabited continent and giving them all the gospel was presumably an option rejected by God.
So, the gospel isn't actually important to God.
Where will the Pope end up, in your opinion? Heaven or hell?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 10-05-2010 5:10 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by iano, posted 10-05-2010 8:17 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2498 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 45 of 47 (585065)
10-05-2010 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by iano
10-05-2010 8:17 AM


Re: No True Christian
iano writes:
Indeed. Point being, the issue isn't so much the evidence as the view one holds regarding the evidence.
The point being that we can look at evidence which is external to the religious texts themselves, and observe that the overwhelming majority of those with a Muslim childhood will go one way, and the overwhelming majority of those with a Christian background, the other.
Many in both groups will perceive themselves as being evidence based believers. What does this tell our analytical minds?
Then there's the Hindus, the Jews.......
iano writes:
I don't think Slevesque is a cultural Christian, no.
I don't think he's an unquestioning Christian, but religions are cultural phenomena. People do sometimes adopt religions that are exotic to the culture they are from, but the cultures have to be in contact for that to happen. So, you couldn't have found an Irish Hindu 500 years ago, but you'll find a few now.
All religions originate in one specific area, and spread via human communication, migration and conquest. If they are to maintain their ground over time, they must be successfully passed down generations.
iano writes:
And I wasn't programmed with the view that the Bible was the word of God. Doesn't that neutralise your contention that people are the inevitable products of their culture?
"Inevitable" is your word. Consider. I'd already presented myself as an example of someone whose attitude to the Bible isn't what I was taught as a child, and I think I've used the word "majority" at least once.
You would certainly have heard the Bible referred to with reverence frequently in your childhood, and described as a holy book.
iano writes:
It's not relevant how I know. The point is that you're supposing a particular view (cultural influence explains all) correct....
No. See above. Some people are good at assessing evidence, and can virtually eliminate cultural influence in at least some areas of thought and belief. It is awareness of cultural subjectivity that can lead to increased objectivity, and that point is important in relation to the title of this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by iano, posted 10-05-2010 8:17 AM iano has seen this message but not replied

  
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