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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Biblical Record
anthonylau 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 3254 days)
Posts: 20
Joined: 04-24-2010


Message 301 of 348 (557235)
04-24-2010 12:48 AM


spam deletion

Edited by AdminAsgara, : spam deletion


    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1810 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 302 of 348 (574274)
08-15-2010 4:49 AM


So little evidence for it, so much evidence against it...
archaeologist writes here:

we have museums filled with archaeological evidence supporting the biblical record.

The simple fact is that we don't. When I was a young evangelical Christian, I went looking for this evidence as I had been told the same thing by my Bible study mentors. I could not find it. I went to the Biblical Archaeological Review, the one serious evangelical Christian archaeology publication, and they showed that it does not exist. There is very little evidence even *consistent* with the OT, never mind that actually supports the OT narrative.

There is no evidence for Moses and the Exodus. There is plenty of evidence against the Exodus, which, according to the Book of Exodus, was essentially the exile of around 2 million people from Egypt! This is a huge percentage of the population of Egypt at that time yet no mention is made in any of the Egyptian texts. Nor is there any archaeological evidence of the migration of that staggering number of people as it criss-crossed the Sinai and Levant regions.

We can go on: there is no evidence for Joshua and the Conquest. There is plenty of evidence against it. There is no evidence for any of the Judges and no evidence for Saul. For mighty David and all his great stories, there is one scrap of pitiful evidence that may just mention his name - that is all - and many dispute that it has anything to do with the David of the OT.

There is virtually no evidence at all for the entire pre-captivity OT narrative of the Jews.

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6277
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 303 of 348 (574345)
08-15-2010 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by cavediver
08-15-2010 4:49 AM


Re: So little evidence for it, so much evidence against it...
And not surprisingly, when he was called on to prevent this evidence he completely ignored the request. I have yet to see him support anything he has said. Even when he refers to the bible it is necessary to look at the passages, because as of yet I don't think any of them say what he claims they say.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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greyseal
Member (Idle past 2028 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 304 of 348 (579439)
09-04-2010 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Peg
04-03-2010 11:42 PM


Re: Denial Of The Evidence
peg writes:

The bible is a record of human history not found anywhere else

Hi Peg - I just wanted to point out that information "not found anywhere else" usually means "made up". It's corroboration which lends credence to things.

Dating, for example, is leant credence by the fact that (despite what you claimed) the many different dating mechanisms all do agree with each other to within an acceptable margin, despite utilizing different methods to get their answers.


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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 305 of 348 (585406)
10-08-2010 8:23 AM


Yet another thread where the emphasis is incorrectly placed on evidence.
Where is the evidence for this, where is the evidence for that is all that I hear from the Dawkins brigade. (Does he pay you to do this?)

I think the discussion has to be on how plausible the ideas and prophecies are that are contained within the bible. eg.

1) Genesis states that man would have dominion over the animals. This is clearly true. Anyone who asks for evidence at this point should visit a zoo.
2) Revelation predicts that a scorching ball would hit the earth in the future. We have records to show that objects have hit the earth and that another could possibly hit in 2029 or 2036. (Apophis).

Not an extensive list granted but compelling.


Replies to this message:
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BarackZero
Member (Idle past 3021 days)
Posts: 57
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 306 of 348 (585408)
10-08-2010 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ZenMonkey
03-14-2010 12:28 AM


ZenMonkey wrote:

Buz refers to this corroborating evidence a lot. But what exactly is it?

Second, this evidence has to be substantial.

So I'd like some specifics. What factual claims are being made about the Bible for which someone has independent evidence that isn't trivial?

===========
BarackZero:

Books have been written on the subject. Books.
Given that you said you'd "like some specifics," have you ever searched for "some specifics"? If so, please explain how.
What books on the subject have you read, if any?
If you read any such book, did you dismiss 100% of what the author(s) wrote?

I would suggest you read "The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell, unless you are afraid of what you might find.


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BarackZero
Member (Idle past 3021 days)
Posts: 57
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 307 of 348 (585410)
10-08-2010 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by cavediver
08-15-2010 4:49 AM


Re: So little evidence for it, so much evidence against it...
Nelson Glueck, the renowned Jewish archaeologist, wrote: It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever contradicted a biblical reference. He continued his assertion of the almost incredibly accurate historical memory of the Bible, and particularly so when it is fortified by archaeological fact.
W.F. Albright adds: The excessive scepticism shown toward the Bible by important historical schools of the eighteenth- and nineteenth centuries, certain phases of which still appear periodically, has been progressively discredited. Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of innumerable details, and has brought increased recognition to the value of the Bible as a source of history.
He later writes: Archaeological discoveries of the past generation in Egypt, Syria, and Palestine have gone far to establish the uniqueness of early Christianity as an historical phenomenon. - The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell, Page 61

Robert Dick Wilsons brilliant observations trace the veracity and trustworthiness of Scriptures back to the surrounding cultures of Old Testament Israel:
The Hebrew Scriptures contain the names of 26 or more foreign kings whose names have been found on documents contemporary with the kings. - page 70

Wilson adds that there are about forty of these kings living from 2000 B.C. to 400 B.C. Each appears in chronological order: With respect to the kings of the same country and with respect to the kings of other countries. no stronger evidence for the substantial accuracy of the Old Testament records could possibly be imagined, than this collection of kings. In a footnote he computes the probability of this accuracy occurring by chance. Mathematically, it is one chance in 750,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 that this accuracy is mere circumstance.

William Green concludes that it may be safely said that no other work of antiquity has been so accurately transmitted. - page 71

For example, it was long believed that the Bible erred when it spoke about Hittites. (Gen. 23:10) But since the discovery of the Hittite library in Turkey (1906) this is no longer the case. - page 94


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Huntard
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 308 of 348 (585411)
10-08-2010 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Big_Al35
10-08-2010 8:23 AM


Big_Al35 writes:

Yet another thread where the emphasis is incorrectly placed on evidence.


Why?

Where is the evidence for this, where is the evidence for that is all that I hear from the Dawkins brigade. (Does he pay you to do this?)

No, and in fact, I think he's too much of a dick at times.

I think the discussion has to be on how plausible the ideas and prophecies are that are contained within the bible. eg.

Why?

1) Genesis states that man would have dominion over the animals. This is clearly true. Anyone who asks for evidence at this point should visit a zoo.

So? Man had dominion over the animals long before Genesis was written, so whether or not God said this is irrelevant, it was the case when it was written down, so saying god said it would be so is not a prophecy. Also, nobody is saying the bible is not correct on this point.

2) Revelation predicts that a scorching ball would hit the earth in the future. We have records to show that objects have hit the earth and that another could possibly hit in 2029 or 2036. (Apophis).

So? I can make the exact same prediction, it will always come true. This is not a prophecy to be awed at.

Not an extensive list granted but compelling.

It's convincingint he least.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Big_Al35, posted 10-08-2010 8:23 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 309 of 348 (585412)
10-08-2010 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 8:39 AM


Re: So little evidence for it, so much evidence against it...
They're still wrong, the flood, for example, has long since been disproven. As has the Exodus.
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Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 310 of 348 (585428)
10-08-2010 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Huntard
10-08-2010 8:44 AM


Huntard writes:

So? Man had dominion over the animals long before Genesis was written, so whether or not God said this is irrelevant, it was the case when it was written down, so saying god said it would be so is not a prophecy. Also, nobody is saying the bible is not correct on this point.

I am not sure what your definition of dominion is? Certainly some animals have been domesticated for thousands of years. I doubt very much if people kept whales as pets or lions as pets during the genesis period. Today however, you can go and watch killer whale shows or lions in circuses which haven't yet banned the practice. The human race is also in the process of eradicting many species if not all from the face of the earth. If that isn't dominion I don't know what is.

Huntard writes:

So? I can make the exact same prediction, it will always come true. This is not a prophecy to be awed at.

The issue here is not the prediction. Ofcourse, comets and asteroids are always likely to hit the earth in the future and we are all capable of making the prediction. The point here is that someone understood the concept of comets and asteroids 2000 years ago. The also understood that one could come crashing to earth. They further determined that such an event could wipe out a percentage of life here on earth. Considering that most of the advances in astronomy have been made within the last 300years, the fact that early humans had access to this information is staggering.


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Panda
Member (Idle past 1879 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 311 of 348 (585431)
10-08-2010 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Big_Al35
10-08-2010 8:23 AM


Big_Al35 writes:

2) Revelation predicts that a scorching ball would hit the earth in the future. We have records to show that objects have hit the earth and that another could possibly hit in 2029 or 2036. (Apophis).


I predict that a volcano will erupt under the sea 'in the future'.

When this comes to pass - will you accept me as a prophet?


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Huntard
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 312 of 348 (585432)
10-08-2010 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Big_Al35
10-08-2010 9:53 AM


Big_Al35 writes:

I am not sure what your definition of dominion is? Certainly some animals have been domesticated for thousands of years. I doubt very much if people kept whales as pets or lions as pets during the genesis period.


Genesis wasn't written 6000 years ago, by the time it was written, there were some people with lions and all sorts of creatures as pets. Also, nobody keeps whales as pets today as well. Man having dominion over animals does not mean he can keep them all as pets.

Today however, you can go and watch killer whale shows or lions in circuses which haven't yet banned the practice.

So?

The human race is also in the process of eradicting many species if not all from the face of the earth.

And has been doing so for a very very long time. We're just better at it now.

If that isn't dominion I don't know what is.

But we have had dominion long before now. From before Genesis was written, in fact.

The issue here is not the prediction. Ofcourse, comets and asteroids are always likely to hit the earth in the future and we are all capable of making the prediction. The point here is that someone understood the concept of comets and asteroids 2000 years ago.

Of course, since they were already falling back then and had been for way before then. Are you saying there is no way that stories about "a ball of fire from the sky" would not have survived until 2000 years ago?

The also understood that one could come crashing to earth.

Of course. They could draw conclusionsand extrapolate.

They further determined that such an event could wipe out a percentage of life here on earth.

Of course. Again, they could draw conclusions and extrapolate.

Considering that most of the advances in astronomy have been made within the last 300years, the fact that early humans had access to this information is staggering.

No it isn't. If you know that there are things such as comets/asteroids (or big balls of fire from the sky), it doesn't take a whole lot of brain power to extrapolate this to bigger proportions.
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Panda
Member (Idle past 1879 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 313 of 348 (585434)
10-08-2010 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Big_Al35
10-08-2010 9:53 AM


Big_Al35 writes:

Revelation predicts that a scorching ball would hit the earth in the future.

Big_Al35 writes:

The issue here is not the prediction. Ofcourse, comets and asteroids are always likely to hit the earth in the future and we are all capable of making the prediction. The point here is that someone understood the concept of comets and asteroids 2000 years ago.

Understanding a "scorching ball" is very different from understanding comets and asteroids...
...unless you think that comets and asteroids are just hot balls of stuff that fall randomly from the sky?

{abe}Damn. I think Huntard kinda said this first.
I'd rather you answer Huntard's post than my mine.
It'll help keep the thread clearer, I think.

Edited by Panda, : Too slow!


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 314 of 348 (585435)
10-08-2010 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by Panda
10-08-2010 10:19 AM


Hello Panda, welcome to EvC!

Yeah, I was just going to edit that into my message as well (that giant balls of fire are not equal to comets).

Good point, thatnks.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30988
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 315 of 348 (585440)
10-08-2010 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Big_Al35
10-08-2010 9:53 AM


The issue here is not the prediction. Ofcourse, comets and asteroids are always likely to hit the earth in the future and we are all capable of making the prediction. The point here is that someone understood the concept of comets and asteroids 2000 years ago. The also understood that one could come crashing to earth. They further determined that such an event could wipe out a percentage of life here on earth. Considering that most of the advances in astronomy have been made within the last 300years, the fact that early humans had access to this information is staggering.

First I doubt that prediction is true. Let's get chapter and verse and see just what you are really talking about.

I bet it will not be all that staggering.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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