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Author Topic:   The problem with creationism and god
BarackZero
Member (Idle past 4853 days)
Posts: 57
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 46 of 109 (585476)
10-08-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Dr Adequate
10-08-2010 10:48 AM


DrInadequate:
Only it sounds to me like what you're actually describing is the Great Big False Dichotomy of creationists, whereby arguments against evolution are taken to be arguments for creationism.
===============
BarackZero:
The Great Big False Dichotomy truly is:
"Unless you can propose an alternative, then it's evolution, all the way down."
Like most of your friends here, you don't want to consider anything contrary to your own dogma.
You merely trivialize anything of that nature, and with it, the intellect and acumen of all who are not like you - *scientific and wise.*
Such an attitude as yours is most unscientific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-08-2010 10:48 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-08-2010 12:41 PM BarackZero has not replied
 Message 53 by Larni, posted 10-08-2010 12:58 PM BarackZero has not replied
 Message 55 by frako, posted 10-08-2010 2:17 PM BarackZero has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 47 of 109 (585477)
10-08-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 12:34 PM


You may CLAIM that evolution "does work" until Darwin comes home.
That does not make it so.
The facts, however, do.
It "works" because millions of people have their lives and reputations heavily invested in it, and they continue to promote it at the tops of their lungs.
Ah, paranoia.
But how do you suppose that this state of affairs came to be in the first place? Why did scientists not invest their reputations in creationism?
Would a mathematician rather invest his reputation in the proposition that 2 + 2 = 4, or in the proposition that 2 + 2 = 5?
So what would biologists rather invest their reputations in: biological facts, or biological fictions? If you will not credit them with any integrity, then even so mere prudence would incline them to the truth: which is why they support evolution and mock creationism as worthless nonsense.
Nobody says "Gravity is as firm a theory as evolution."
And millions of credulous halfwits are not denying gravity.
Do you think there could be a connection between these two observations?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by BarackZero, posted 10-08-2010 12:34 PM BarackZero has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 48 of 109 (585478)
10-08-2010 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 12:39 PM


The Great Big False Dichotomy truly is:
"Unless you can propose an alternative, then it's evolution, all the way down."
Like most of your friends here, you don't want to consider anything contrary to your own dogma.
You merely trivialize anything of that nature, and with it, the intellect and acumen of all who are not like you - *scientific and wise.*
Such an attitude as yours is most unscientific.
You are lying to me about my own opinions.
Do you really have any expectation of deceiving me?
I note, by the way, that you have declined my invitation to quote one single scientist actually saying the "nonsense" that you claim that they "incessantly prattle".
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 49 of 109 (585480)
10-08-2010 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 12:34 PM


BarackZero writes:
You may CLAIM that evolution "does work" until Darwin comes home.
That does not make it so.
No the fact that it does work, makes it so. Also, you denying it works doesn't suddenly make it stop working.
It "works" because millions of people have their lives and reputations heavily invested in it, and they continue to promote it at the tops of their lungs.
Sure, we're all part of a big conspiracy. We are also all billionaires, you know.
Nobody says "Gravity is as firm a theory as evolution."
Only the reverse pretense is parroted endlessly.
Gravity is a s firm a theory as evolution. You know why people say it in reverse? Because everybody (well, almost everybody) accepts gravity. So it is easier to say that "evolution is as firm a theory as gravity" when talking to someone who doesn't accept evolution but does accept gravity. Were I'm talking to someone who denied gravity yet accepts evolution I would say "gravity is as firm a theory as evolution". There, I've said it twice now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by BarackZero, posted 10-08-2010 12:34 PM BarackZero has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-08-2010 12:44 PM Huntard has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 50 of 109 (585481)
10-08-2010 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Huntard
10-08-2010 12:42 PM


Gravity is a s firm a theory as evolution.
Not 'til you can show me a graviton.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Huntard, posted 10-08-2010 12:42 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Huntard, posted 10-08-2010 12:47 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 51 of 109 (585483)
10-08-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dr Adequate
10-08-2010 12:44 PM


Shh! You'll confuse the poor boy even more!
I know evolution is better understood than gravity, I just wanted to test him.
Now you've ruined it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-08-2010 12:44 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 52 of 109 (585484)
10-08-2010 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 12:35 PM


Re: Topic
Darwinists are nauseatingly arrogant and condescending.
I note that that statement is not itself an exemplar of diffident humility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by BarackZero, posted 10-08-2010 12:35 PM BarackZero has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 53 of 109 (585488)
10-08-2010 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 12:39 PM


Pile on, again.
Don't let them get you down Barack, there is always a massive pile on here.
Armed only with hypothesis and theories they leap to conclusions when evidence appears to support their predictions and the best they can say is that they are tentative in their conclusions.
Tentative conclusions are hardly scientific!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by BarackZero, posted 10-08-2010 12:39 PM BarackZero has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 109 (585491)
10-08-2010 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 12:35 PM


Re: Topic
Nonsense.
Biblical Creationism explains nothing.
The ONLY theory that is available currently that does explain the variety of life we see today as well as the FACT of Evolution is the Theory of Evolution.
If you wish for Creationism to be taken as anything more than a pitiful joke, there is a thread I started that outlines the steps you must take. You can find that helpful guide here.
Speaking to you as one Christian to another, supporting Biblical Creationism does absolutely nothing but force ignorance upon our children and is a denial to use the gifts the very GOD you seem to believe in gave you.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by BarackZero, posted 10-08-2010 12:35 PM BarackZero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by BarackZero, posted 10-09-2010 8:02 PM jar has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 55 of 109 (585510)
10-08-2010 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 12:39 PM


science was trying to prove creation and the bible for a long time, and still the verdict is evolution no creation.
and unless you can find a viable alternitive supported by clear evidence the verdict will stay evolution so fare the probabilety of evolution being right and creation wrong is so high that evolution is considered FACT by some

This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 56 of 109 (585513)
10-08-2010 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 9:09 AM


You are asking for the authority of a figure taken from an out of context quote. As was stated by Dr Adaquate
Satire does not require numerical precision.
The qoute was in responce to saying the following.
creo speaker writes:
How can you believe in evolution, when it is only ~90% correct?
The quote was a response to that.
Both signature quotes 2 & 3 are sarcastic remarks to questions posed to me.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 57 of 109 (585530)
10-08-2010 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 12:35 PM


Re: Topic
BarackZero writes:
Dr Adequate writes:
BarackZero writes:
Then show the evolutionary diagram from our nearest invertebrate ancestor to Homo sapiens, and label each and every branch by genus and species.
Show me your family tree from Adam, labeling each individual by name ...
No?
Ah well then, your fiction of having so-called "ancestors" is exploded. Obviously you were poofed out of thin air by magic.
Darwinists are nauseatingly arrogant and condescending.
In the ancient world when printed material was scarce and precious, scholarship included the memorization of entire documents, such as the Torah (the first 5 books of the Old Testament), AKA "The Law".
Around 20 BCE (about 50 years before the ministry of Jesus, which purportedly started around 30 CE), an arrogant gentile was going from school to school and challenging the head rabbi of each school to recite the whole of the Torah while standing on one foot. The usual response he got was exactly what he so richly deserved: they would run him off the property and down the road. However, when he got the Pharisees, Rabbi Hillel replied with a Pharisee teaching, the Golden Rule:
quote:
Do not to others that which is displeasing to yourself. That is the whole of The Law; the rest is just explanation. Now go and learn it.
BZ, the arrogance of that gentile should be glaringly obvious even to you. It was with the exact same kind of arrogance that you hurled your totally unreasonable challenge at AdminNosy. You then accused Dr. Adequate and all other "evolutionists" of arrogance when Dr.A had simply presented your own arrogant challenge back to you so you could see it for what it was. It was obviously displeasing to yourself, so what do you do it to others? Rather than project your own unbridled arrogance upon others, you need to address it in yourself.
Dr Adequate writes:
Creationists are funny.
Well, it's true. Or to quote philosopher of science Michael Ruse:
quote:
Creationism is more fun than science!
That statement is based on examination of several creationist claims, all of which are not only blatantly false, but also supendously false. If somebody wanted to write an outrageous spoof of science, then "creation science" would provide them with a vast wealth of material.
How long have you been studying "creation science" and its claims? Many of the participants here have been for several years; I've been doing so for nearly 30 years, starting back in 1981. That's kind of an important date, since that is when the tide had started to turn. You see, after Epperson vs Arkansas (1968) had invalidated barring the teaching of evolution for religious purposes (thus ending a four-decade ban) anti-evolutionists then redressed their teachings to superficially remove explicit religious references (eg, "God", "Bible", quoting Bible verses), AKA "Hiding the Bible", and then started their public relations campaign to claim that their objections to evolution were purely scientific -- obviously a fraud being perpetrated to circumvent the courts. Starting in the 1970's, creationists went on the road and staged "debates" which they usually "won" due both to their dishonest tactics but also to their opponents' ignorance of "creation science". So those opponents started studying "creation science" and very quickly discovered how its lies had been constructed (eg, through misquoting and misrepresentation) and they put together responses to those claims. So starting around 1979, creationists started losing those debates, though the creationists' publications (eg, the ICR's Acts & Facts) would lie and claim victory instead.
So around 1980 is when most of the classic creationist claims were examined and refuted and those refutations were published. And every time one of those claims would be presented yet again, it would be refuted yet again. Since those claims are constantly being presented, they have been given a name here, PRATT, "point refuted a thousand times".
Now, the reason why I asked how long you've been studying creationism is because of the PRATT phenomenon. You see, the sad fact is that creationists don't last very long. Since their claims and beliefs are contrary-to-fact, they can only maintain those beliefs if they can avoid having to examine their claims, something that they cannot avoid with engaging in discussions of those claims. In addition, new creationists come along all the time, all of them being fed those same old PRATT claims from the same old creationist books that have been around since the 1970's and 1980's -- even the more recent books are mostly recycled old claims from those early years. Furthermore, those books never tell their readers about those claims ever having been refuted and, indeed, will even claim that scientists have never been able to respond to those claims. And each new generation of creationists comes along and feeds from that same old trough of misinformation and then join the fray with their PRATTs (some former creationists describe it as gathering ammunition to join the fight against evolution, only to discover that they'd all been given nothing but blanks). And each new generation of creationists gets shot down in flames, causing them to either lose their faith or else slink off and hide -- or worse, continue to use those PRATTs to proselytize while running away in terror when they encounter anyone knowledgeable in the subject.
OTOH, since "evolutionists'" understanding of the world is in agreement with the facts and with the evidence, we only find confirmation of that understanding and we even get to learn more and more in the process, unlike creationists who must continually work to reinforce their ignorance.
So, BZ, how long have you been at this?
Edited by dwise1, : The Rabbi Hillel quote

This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 58 of 109 (585538)
10-08-2010 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by BarackZero
10-08-2010 9:09 AM


*Welcome*
Hey, welcome to EvC! Oh boy, fresh mea...point of view!
What's with the *starry* quotes? I mean, I can see your *"* key does actually work. Is that typography for a new level of contempt, more powerful than sweeping air quotes? Does this suggest you have achieved a new level of reason, beyond logic and evidence?
Like *creationism*?
"This is so stupid it doesn't even get to be surrounded by the language we all use!" Something like that?
Does that *stuff* impress the girls at your high school?

Dost thou prate, rogue?
-Cassio
Real things always push back.
-William James

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by BarackZero, posted 10-08-2010 9:09 AM BarackZero has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by BarackZero, posted 10-09-2010 8:12 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
BarackZero
Member (Idle past 4853 days)
Posts: 57
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 59 of 109 (585799)
10-09-2010 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
10-08-2010 1:09 PM


Re: Topic
Jar:
Nonsense.
Biblical Creationism explains nothing.
BarackZero:
Where did I mention Biblical Creationism?
Please point out that post.
Your error is the perennial error of Darwinists everywhere.
"If you don't have something better, don't say a word about Darwinism."
Sorry, but that is NOT science.
Darwinism may well be the best we have today. I do not contest that point. What I do contest is that Darwinists refuse to consider any points contrary to their insistent dogma. Sounds to me like Albert Einstein telling George LeMaitre that his theory of a Primordial Atom is just no good, because they couldn't have a beginning.
Nossir, it was an eternal and unchanging universe, by golly.
ALL SCIENTISTS agreed!
Jar:
The ONLY theory that is available currently that does explain the variety of life we see today as well as the FACT of Evolution is the Theory of Evolution.
Speaking to you as one Christian to another, supporting Biblical Creationism does absolutely nothing but force ignorance upon our children and is a denial to use the gifts the very GOD you seem to believe in gave you.
Barack:
There you go again, making statements and then foisting them upon me. Terribly unscientific of you.
Now if you wish to discuss who is "forcing ignorance" upon whom, you should at least begin with something factual - something we can both agree on, which I said. This you failed miserably to do.
And you call yourself a "Christian"?
Now, as to which of us understands science and reality better, I'll go first.
Nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy concerns itself with identifying organic compounds by measuring the resonance signals emitted by the tested hydrogen compound relative to tetramethyl silane, or TMS, which is arbitrarily 0.
I have conducted research while using an NMR.
Biblical Creationism is not a subject I discuss. YOU brought it up.
I deal with science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 10-08-2010 1:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 109 (585800)
10-09-2010 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by BarackZero
10-09-2010 8:02 PM


Re: Topic
So present something that is on topic.
If there is some model other than the Theory of Evolution, present it.
It really is that simple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by BarackZero, posted 10-09-2010 8:02 PM BarackZero has not replied

  
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