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Author Topic:   Evolution of Altruism
subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 3 of 103 (585682)
10-09-2010 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stephen Push
10-09-2010 9:09 AM


such self-sacrificing behavior is common enough in our species to raise a challenge to the TOE.
Why?
I mean, I fully understand your point that it will take some work to come up with an evolutionary explanation for this behavior. I have no idea whether anyone already has such an explanation. But, let's assume no explanation is ever developed. Why is this a problem for the ToE? Where is it written that if the ToE doesn't answer every question anyone ever asks that that's a problem? Where is it written that the ToE is supposed to answer every question?
What's the evolutionary explanation for smoking? What's the evolutionary explanation for game shows? What's the evolutionary explanation for the popularity of Paris Hilton?
Humans are reasoning and feeling individuals. I see nothing whatsoever contradictory between humans doing things against their own self interest and the ToE. I don't mean to suggest we shouldn't look for an answer to the question, because it is interesting and finding an evolutionary explanation could lead to other interesting ideas and discoveries. But the lack of an evolutionary explanation for this behavior presents absolutely no problem for the ToE in any way.
My two cents, and sorry if I'm starting your thread off by going off topic right from the start.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 9:09 AM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 2:33 PM subbie has replied
 Message 20 by Omnivorous, posted 10-09-2010 3:12 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 14 of 103 (585733)
10-09-2010 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Stephen Push
10-09-2010 1:59 PM


But when a portion of the population engages in behavior that, on the face of it, appears to be highly maladaptive, it is reasonable to expect the ToE to give a satisfactory explanation.
You failed to actually address the point that several people here raised, that altruism may be a result of social evolution, rather than biological evolution. As such, there's really no point in looking for a ToE explanation. In fact, if altruism is maladaptive, it seems highly counter intuitive to look for an adaptive explanation.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 1:59 PM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 2:48 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 16 of 103 (585741)
10-09-2010 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Stephen Push
10-09-2010 2:33 PM


I think our tendency to sometimes overcome this fear to help others with no obvious benefit to ourselves requires an explanation.
No argument here. The question is why you think the explanation must come from the ToE.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 2:33 PM Stephen Push has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 3:32 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 18 of 103 (585744)
10-09-2010 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Stephen Push
10-09-2010 2:48 PM


The ToE would have very little explanatory power if, every time apparently maladaptive behavior was observed, it was written off as "social evolution." Do you believe that the ToE can be used to explain the social behavior of non-human animals but cannot be used to explain human social behavior?
So far, I haven't seen anyone write anything off as social evolution. The question, instead, has been why you seem to insist that the ToE must be able to explain it.
I believe the ToE can be used to explain some human social behavior. But to suggest that it's a problem for the ToE if it can't explain one particular aspect of human behavior is simply wrong.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 2:48 PM Stephen Push has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 24 of 103 (585752)
10-09-2010 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stephen Push
10-09-2010 3:32 PM


As a general rule the ToE, as I understand it, predicts that animals behave in their own genetic self-interest.
The key, of course, is the first 4 words of that sentence. Since it is in fact a general rule, there are exceptions. One obvious area where one might expect to find exceptions would be in an intelligent organism with the ability to reason beyond their instincts. Does that description remind you of any organism in particular?
On the face of it, self-sacrificing behavior would seem to falsify the TOE.
Only if the ToE absolutely required that all organisms always act in their own self interests. If you can find one single biologist who claims that the ToE requires that, I'd be amazed and question the intelligence and/or sanity of that person.
But to dismiss the evidence and say it needs no explanation strikes me as an unscientific position.
It certainly would. Please point to one person who has done that and I'll set them right. On the other hand, it's also quite unscientific to assume that the ToE requires something that it doesn't, then point to the absence of that thing that the ToE doesn't require and claim that it falsifies the ToE. I've run into someone who actually does say that and I'm trying to set them right.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Stephen Push, posted 10-09-2010 3:32 PM Stephen Push has not replied

  
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