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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5718
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 46 of 274 (585953)
10-10-2010 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
10-10-2010 3:17 PM


Re: Revelations and Prophecy
Some amount of interpretation is inherent in the process of trying to make sense of prophecy written in symbolic language.

The issue is that many Christians, if not most, tend to believe in a literal interpretation of the bible. If ever there was a book that seems symbolic, it would be Genesis. Yet, most Christians maintain a rigidly strict and literal interpretation.

As for the OP's point, I see no compelling evidence to connect Revelation to microchips or anything of the sort.

It also means that we're going to constantly hear fanciful predictions from those who think the end is next week if not sooner. Buz seems sure that we are living in the end times.

Every Christian thinks they're living in the End Times. That's practically the standard modus operandi. So far, every one of them has been wrong, to include the apostles themselves. If we're going to look at that from a statistical point of view, that's 100% error. That's not exactly a very compelling record.

Based on that he predicts a course for future events. If all currencies do not fail and a global currency is not introduced, then Buz will be proven wrong.

Global currencies could fail at any time without bowls of wrath being poured out on the earth and harlot's riding on dragons. In fact the way the World Banks and their subdivision operate on interest-laden, fiat currency, it would not surprise me at all if we do have an economic meltdown.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 3:17 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-10-2010 8:48 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 22 days)
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 47 of 274 (585954)
10-10-2010 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 9:36 AM


Re: Mark
Hi Buz,

Buzsaw writes:

No doubt about it.

I don't know what the mark is.

I don't know what the name is.

The text tells us what the number is.

Have you ever run across a text that tells what the mark or name
is?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 9:36 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3110 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 48 of 274 (585955)
10-10-2010 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by frako
10-10-2010 4:56 PM


I still trying to figure out how...
...Muslims will somehow impose Islam on*all* the 7 continents since Australia, North and South America, Europe, and the Arctic continent are included.The first is less than 1% Muslim as are the next two (Muslims were 0.32% in the U.S.A. according to a Newsweek religious demographic study), the 4th is far less than 10% (without Turkey then its like 2%, as Albania is tiny and after that,only France has only about 7%-8% Muslims), and the 5th isnt worth mentioning.

Asia is dominated by China and India.Muslims are about 5% in China and severely persecuted.India is known for Muslims being such a minority that serarate nations were formed so Muslims could have rights(Pakistan and Bangladesh).And those nations are full of bars that serve beer plus Islamic parties cant get more than a few percent in elections.

That leaves Africa.

Africa had seen rapid growth in the Roman Catholic faith, infact it is the only continent where Catholics arent shrinking in number(infact the reverse is true).Muslims are perhaps less than 50% of all Africa.

Oops,I forgot to mention that this was in responce to the foolish Buz quote that somehow worked the Islamic faith into the persecutors in Revelation(which seems to be a combination of Jews, Romans and perhaps Babylonians).

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by frako, posted 10-10-2010 4:56 PM frako has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 22 days)
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 49 of 274 (585959)
10-10-2010 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Nimrod
10-10-2010 4:51 PM


Re: Mark
Hi Nimrod,

Nimrod writes:

But Jesus said that his ressurection would signify the new Temple when he said that if it would be destroyed then it would be rebuilt in 3 days.So thats the New Testament view of the Temple.

Now since this is totaly off topic in this thread maybe you would like to start one and discuss it.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 4:51 PM Nimrod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 7:01 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 22 days)
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 50 of 274 (585960)
10-10-2010 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Modulous
10-10-2010 4:54 PM


Re: Mark
Hi Mod,

Modulous writes:

It isn't a monetary system, it is a transaction regulation system. A monetary system is what represents wealth. In the US the monetary system is dollars.

You do mean worthless dollars don't you?

I thought a monetary system was whatever mechanism the government set up to carry on the business of transfer of goods and services.

Maybe I am mistaken.

I don't think the US or the UK will be setting up the rules of the government mentioned in chapter 13 of the book of Revelation.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 4:54 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Nij, posted 10-10-2010 6:13 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 54 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 8:15 PM ICANT has responded

    
Nij
Member (Idle past 3084 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 51 of 274 (585962)
10-10-2010 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICANT
10-10-2010 6:06 PM


Re: Mark
As pointed out in the message you replied to, and as the earlier examples show, the mark is simply not a monetary system. It is only a permission/authority system.

You do not trade the mark, thus the mark is not currency, and so it is not part any monetary system.
You require the mark to buy and sell; but you do not buy and sell using the marks to pay.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 6:06 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 8:27 PM Nij has responded

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3110 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 52 of 274 (585993)
10-10-2010 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ICANT
10-10-2010 5:57 PM


Re: Mark
Nimrod writes:
But Jesus said that his ressurection would signify the new
quote:

nimrod
Temple when he said that if it would be destroyed then it would be rebuilt in 3 days.So thats the New Testament view of the Temple.

ICANT
Now since this is totaly off topic in this thread maybe you would like to start one and discuss it.


The problem is that prophecy-pushers are constantly making careless claims without evidence.Nearly every line from the above ilk counts as a claim and not a basic factual comment.Perhaps it is off topic, but it came up nevertheless (by you).There are much more "off-topic" lines that needed a responce frankly.So many comments from prophecy minded fundies need some back-up proof but are just thrown out as if they are somehow factual.

God Bless

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 5:57 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 274 (586024)
10-10-2010 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by PaulK
10-10-2010 3:29 PM


Re: Revelations and Prophecy
PaulK writes:

And how can Buz be proven wrong ? With no time limit he can always say that it's coming soon until the day he dies. Anyone who actually follows international affairs can see that it isn't coming soon. There are too many disputes over exchange rates and arguments over national sovereignty to consider a global currency even a remote possibility in the forseeable future. And just look at what is happening with the Euro ! A global currency would be a far more difficult problem !

There are things yet to be completed before Armageddon and the 2nd advent of Jesus etc. Armageddon, the finality of the end times when Jerusalem is invaded are in the relative near future; most likely within the next 40 years; likely sooner than later.

All that needs to be observed for the Buz take on these prophecies is a continuation of the progression of corroborating events as prophecied; that is, progression towards one world monetary marks and numbers, progression of hostility towards Israel (that is after a prophesied 3 1/2 year truce), progression towards persecution of Christian (i.e. the great tribulation), progression of the expansion and rise of Islam, continued dimishment of the Wester powers, including the US and the increase of powers via a Russian, European and Islam block nation alliance emerging into the final superpowers ever increasing their allied domination of the UN global beast/final Gentile global empire.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein. Address only topic related comments, if there are any.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2010 3:29 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Nimrod, posted 10-10-2010 8:38 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2010 1:51 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 299 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 54 of 274 (586029)
10-10-2010 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICANT
10-10-2010 6:06 PM


Re: Mark
You do mean worthless dollars don't you?

Yes, worthless dollars. Bundle them into a box and mail them to me. I'll pay p&p back to you in gold or something, with a little bonus, just for fun.

I thought a monetary system was whatever mechanism the government set up to carry on the business of transfer of goods and services.

Maybe I am mistaken.

Indeed you are, you are probably thinking of economic systems.

quote:
monetary system

noun
anything that is generally accepted as a standard of value and a measure of wealth in a particular country or region [syn: medium of exchange]


source

quote:
An economic system is the structure of production, allocation of economic inputs, distribution of economic outputs, and consumption of goods and services in an economy.

source


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 6:06 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 8:46 PM Modulous has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 22 days)
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 55 of 274 (586034)
10-10-2010 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Nij
10-10-2010 6:13 PM


Re: Mark
Hi Nij,

Nij writes:

You do not trade the mark, thus the mark is not currency, and so it is not part any monetary system.
You require the mark to buy and sell; but you do not buy and sell using the marks to pay.

Since that assertion I am going to assume you know what the mark and the name is, so could you tell me where in the text I can find out what they are?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Nij, posted 10-10-2010 6:13 PM Nij has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 8:33 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 75 by Nij, posted 10-11-2010 1:40 AM ICANT has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 56 of 274 (586035)
10-10-2010 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ICANT
10-10-2010 8:27 PM


Re: Mark
Too funny and yet another example of you trying to misdirect the audience attention while you palm the pea. Did you ever read the Bible or even the OP?

quote:
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.


The MARK is the name or number of the Beast.

It is the same thing on every single person.

It is a TradeMark.

It is NOT a monetary system.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 8:27 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 9:02 PM jar has responded

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3110 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 57 of 274 (586036)
10-10-2010 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 8:06 PM


More examples below. (or above)
quote:

Buzsaw
There are things yet to be completed before Armageddon and the 2nd advent of Jesus etc. Armageddon, the finality of the end times when Jerusalem is invaded are in the relative near future; most likely within the next 40 years; likely sooner than later.

All that needs to be observed for the Buz take on these prophecies is a continuation of the progression of corroborating events as prophecied; that is, progression towards one world monetary marks and numbers, progression of hostility towards Israel (that is after a prophesied 3 1/2 year truce), progression towards persecution of Christian (i.e. the great tribulation), progression of the expansion and rise of Islam, continued dimishment of the Wester powers, including the US and the increase of powers via a Russian, European and Islam block nation alliance emerging into the final superpowers ever increasing their allied domination of the UN global beast/final Gentile global empire.


I often get accused of making off topic posts in my responces but my responces have to do with claims like these.

"On-topic" or "off-topic"?

Buz offered claims to establish a credible context to the narrowly focused topic of the thread.There are wider issues involved here, and responces often get written off as "off topic".

Islam and its so-called "expansion and rise" was brought up by Buz as context to support the idea that Revelation(?) has a credible context.Where is Islam rising? Muslims seem just as interested in beer as they are in obeying the Koran.There are bars everywhere in most Muslim countries.

The United States is an offshoot of Europe but he places Europe in a "block" with non-western nations and as opposed to the U.S.A.

Diminishment of western powers? From 100% of power down to 98% I suppose.

Christians being persecuted now as in worse than the past? In Europe? In India? Chinia has seen much improvement since the cultural revolution.Russia has improved as much in about the same amount of time. South American persecution of Christians? There is much more freedom now than when the Spanish recently arrived. Persecution in North America?

I see improvement everywhere on the religious freedom front.

Fundi-Christians need to stop using "liberal" as a dirty word if they keep this kind of rhetoric up. (They typically accuse Europeans of being anti-military pussey-cats and bemoan increased tolerance of all types of behavior in the U.S.A. and everywhere else.)

Contradictions,contradictions,contradictions.

And just what does this have to do with the Bible anyway? Oh yea, they contradict that too.Just like when they push for "in your face public"group prayer in school despite the fact that Christianity should be against all forms of public prayer(it should be "secret"non-private prayer hidden from others) based on the Sermon on the Mount commandment(around Matthew 5:9-11 or 6:9-11 or somewhere I forget).

Just like Buz using a Revelation thread to claim that the Bible talks about Islamic persecution of Christians as prophecy when Jews seem to be singled out as these "end-times" meanies to Christians (how can one escape this conclusion when Buz places Revelation as describing end-times events?).

"Off-topic", Im sure will be the responce if I get any at all.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 8:06 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 10:31 PM Nimrod has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 22 days)
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 58 of 274 (586037)
10-10-2010 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Modulous
10-10-2010 8:15 PM


Re: Mark
Hi Mod,

Modulous writes:

Yes, worthless dollars.

Well I was comparing them to the 1425 dollars I paid for my first pickup truck that a comparable truck today costs 30,000 of them.

Modulous writes:

quote:
An economic system is the structure of production, allocation of economic inputs, distribution of economic outputs, and consumption of goods and services in an economy.

Which of these cover,

A mark in your hand or forehead? What is this mark?

A name in your hand or forehead? What is this name?

Or a number in your hand or forehead? This is the number 666.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 8:15 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 8:55 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 61 by Modulous, posted 10-10-2010 8:57 PM ICANT has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 59 of 274 (586039)
10-10-2010 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hyroglyphx
10-10-2010 5:04 PM


Re: Revelations and Prophecy
Global currencies could fail at any time without bowls of wrath being poured out on the earth and harlot's riding on dragons.

But that way sounds like the most fun.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-10-2010 5:04 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 60 of 274 (586040)
10-10-2010 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ICANT
10-10-2010 8:46 PM


Attractive Rabbit Hole warning
ICANT writes:

Which of these cover,

A mark in your hand or forehead? What is this mark?

A name in your hand or forehead? What is this name?

Or a number in your hand or forehead? This is the number 666.

Yet another attempt to misdirect the audience attention to allow you to palm the pea.

It is irrelevant what the mark is or the name is, it is the name of the Beast. Asking those questions is simply a way to avoid the real issue that the passage in Revelation does NOT describe a monetary system.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 8:46 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ICANT, posted 10-10-2010 10:04 PM jar has responded

  
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